BaL 28.04.18 - Brahms: Symphony no. 1 in C minor

[BBMmk2]

Chailly would be my current favourite, but I'm not parting with Norrington and the London Classical Players any time soon. No mention of it, or JEG's ORR recording unless I wasn't listening carefully enough

I ws noticing that, re Gardiner. be a hard act to follow, imo but there are so many versions out there, I think it comes to one's own preferences here.

[silvestrione]

....and broadly the same reading live in Tokyo from May 1988 in good, though not exceptional, sound...I haven't the Testament for comparison...Highland Dougie perhaps...?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Concert-1988-Mozart-Brahms/dp/B00144661S/ref=pd_bxgy_15_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=AFSSASV3CSPRHWJV6AE5

It deserves its legendary reputation of course (I listened live to the 10/88 RFH one on Radio 3 and was amazed at the time, and in a daze afterward), but is exactly the kind of hefty, monumental Brahms sound that I found so discouraging later. But surely you can't try to repeat an experience such as this performance offers? Isn't it just too intense played this way, for home listening over and over? I taped the RFH broadcast but never got through it all again...I simply couldn't.

A personal view as ever, but there always seems to me a dilemma or paradox at the heart of such extraordinary live experiences, once they are released on record... as if, once they've really taken you to the limit, it can feel like a betrayal to try to do it again.
.

Yes, I know what you mean. It's the same for me with some of the Furtwangler classics (the Bruckner 9, for example). The performance seems to belong too much to that time and place, that moment, and it feels like eavesdropping, somehow, to listen to it. The Karajan 1988 is a document, perhaps, rather than a permanently re-listenable, 'library' version, such as his BPO 60s one.

[Barbirollians]

Yes, I know what you mean. It's the same for me with some of the Furtwangler classics (the Bruckner 9, for example). The performance seems to belong too much to that time and place, that moment, and it feels like eavesdropping, somehow, to listen to it. The Karajan 1988 is a document, perhaps, rather than a permanently re-listenable, 'library' version, such as his BPO 60s one.

The same point could surely be made about yesterday's winner ?

[visualnickmos]

The same point could surely be made about yesterday's winner ?

Yes - quite. I know I could never re-listen to the Furtwangler 1952 (and all that entails - sound-wise!) Once is enough - purely for 'document' purposes.

[richardfinegold]

I think it was grainy back and white film of Furtwangler conducting Brahms syms and the extraordinary playing of his BPO that first convinced me that he had an extraordinary affinity with the music, fine as others are. Hearing the 1952 recording today reminded me of the sheer power of his readings in this passionate music.

I checked my collection, and my Furt recording is from 1951, so apparently not the winner. Are there any Furtwanglerians here who are sufficiently aware of the differences between them?

[silvestrione]

The same point could surely be made about yesterday's winner ?

I don't know it. But yes, I find I rarely play any of my small selection of Furtwangler discs, and have found my self wondering why, and am beginning to understand why. I also have that 1951 Brahms Sym 1. Must give it a try!

By the way, Richard Osborne, an authority for me on Furtwangler, years ago in Gramophone preferred the Vienna recording of Brahms 1, from earlier in 1952, which Ivan Hewett-like, he thinks incomparable. The review is available on search.

[Cockney Sparrow]

ASIN: B0046767OQ

If anyone were to be tempted - the CDs apparently unavailable now - to get the download of the Furtwangler, from the River people, Presto will provide a lossless version at lesser cost and with a digital booklet.
(Its also available on Naxos Music Library. Label DGG (page 4 under the initial "F" on DGG after selecting "Label" from the grey ring menu. ).No booklet or even rear box image).

[jayne lee wilson]

Excellent BaL very much in the style of I-o-R, with a historically wide range of excerpts and approaches, and a nice, Gramophone-Collection choice of three at the end, revisionist (Norrington) modern classic (Chailly) and Historical (Furtwangler).
Initially much taken with Furtwangler’s 1st Movement, weighty yet vibrant, I was put off by the poor sound for the finale excerpts, even allowing for the webcast’s lossy codec. And having been promised the earth musically, I didn’t find the coda quite as thrilling as Hewitt described.

Very drawn to SWR/Norrington for lovely sound and originality of approach, which still seemed truculently faithfully to Brahms’ struggling conception; but then I adore most of those SWR/Norrington recordings; the Brahms set is one of the few I don’t have.

Ticciati - warm, expressive, flexibility of line, outstandingly vivid, colourful sound… what a shame I can’t stream that one. Pity he didn’t bring Mackerras or Berglund into the discussion at that point, but I think Ticciati would have more than held his own.
I understood (and could hear) his reasons for admiring Chailly, but found it just a shade cool or impersonal.

Disliked the Barenboim and Munch excerpts - variously slow and heavy, or over-intense…
So if I was “in the market” for a Brahms set now, I’d be looking at Norrington and Ticciati.

[BBMmk2]

Didn't he like the Haitink versions?

[Barbirollians]

Didn't he like the Haitink versions?

Not mentioned - like Walter and Karajan as I recall.

[Lordgeous]

I still love my old Cantelli LP!

[Mal]

They did mention Klemperer, at least. It won a penguin rosette, got on my "must buy" list when I listened to it on Spotify a few years ago, and sounded great on the clips from this programme. Maybe he was in there as "representative of the old school". But if they were trying to get me to buy from the "new school", or the "very old school", they failed. Klemperer has remained (and moved up) on my "to buy" list. Someone was saying he was too heavy on the timps, but that will be a nice contrast to Walter, who's tending to too light. Walter is overall great though - my benchmark now and always, a passionate reading, intimately in touch with the inner meaning of the music, like the rest of his Brahms (even 4, for me...)

[Mal]

Initially much taken with Furtwangler’s 1st Movement, weighty yet vibrant, I was put off by the poor sound for the finale excerpts, even allowing for the webcast’s lossy codec. And having been promised the earth musically, I didn’t find the coda quite as thrilling as Hewitt described.

Good point! That build up, followed by that sound quality, was almost like a Monty Python sketch. But, as you say, lossy codec, plus (in my case) good headphones plugged straight into a basic computer. Anyone heard Furtwangler in good sound, in Brahms 1, on CD? Furtwangler in good sound can certainly be found in other performances. I really love his Schubert: Symphony No. 9 / Haydn: Symphony No. 88 on DG originals.

[visualnickmos]

.....But, as you say, lossy codec, plus (in my case) good headphones plugged straight into a basic computer. .

But what a palaver to have to go through - all many people want to do (ie me) is put the CD in, press play - and we're off!

[cloughie]

Good point! That build up, followed by that sound quality, was almost like a Monty Python sketch. But, as you say, lossy codec, plus (in my case) good headphones plugged straight into a basic computer. Anyone heard Furtwangler in good sound, in Brahms 1, on CD? Furtwangler in good sound can certainly be found in other performances. I really love his Schubert: Symphony No. 9 / Haydn: Symphony No. 88 on DG originals.

And Schumann 4!
And Kempe's Brahms 1 is still for me among the best and in good sound!