BaL 31.03.18 - Tallis: Lamentations of Jeremiah

[kernelbogey]

Although I was listening to this BaL with a lot of interference (DAB, subject for another post.... ) I thought the presenter excellent. The excerpts seemed notably short, so I guess she was trying to cram as many into the time as possible. The metaphors that distressed other passed me by.

I believe I know the Lamentations also from a setting by the matchless Orlando de Lassus - but perhaps am mistaken, and the recording is on an off-air tape buried in a box somewhere (O Jerusalem!). The discussion of pitch also passed me by, since I was simply listening to gain an overall impression, and like Richard T, can't tell the difference unless performances are juxtaposed.

For what it's worth, for me Alexandra Coghlan struck a workable balance between musicological erudition and the needs of the ordinary listener.

[teamsaint]

" Like bleached skeletons flayed of excess flesh".

Which doesn't even seem to make sense really......

[DracoM]

<< Their signature stratospheric pitch isn't usually what's wanted here, is it? >>

Which 'here' are you suggesting?
Puzzled.

[jean]

" Like bleached skeletons flayed of excess flesh".
Which doesn't even seem to make sense really......

It made sense to me!

I think the pitch question here isn’t microtonal variants, but whether you have sopranos on top or do the whole thing much lower (how much?)

[jean]

<< Their signature stratospheric pitch isn't usually what's wanted here, is it? >>

Which 'here' are you suggesting?
Puzzled.

In this work, ie the Tallis Lamentations.

[DracoM]

Sorry - don't get it. If there is debate on 'pitch' in the piece - and this thread has evidenced that pretty extensively - then different ensembles might take different views on the pitch they record at.

So 'isn't wanted here' means...........erm.....what? Isn't wanted by 'us', or 'you'? Or......? By whom?

Genuinely puzzled.

[teamsaint]

It made sense to me!

I think the pitch question here isn’t microtonal variants, but whether you have sopranos on top or do the whole thing much lower (how much?)

I can't see that it made literal sense. "Bleached Skeletons" gives a sense of a long past event, "Flayed of excess flesh" gives a sense of a very recent event.

Not that it matters much, in isolation.

[jean]

I can't see that it made literal sense.

It doesn’t need to - it’s a metaphor!

[teamsaint]

it doesn’t need to - it’s a metaphor.
G

The metaphor is inconsistent within itself , is the point.

[jean]

Sorry - don't get it. If there is debate on 'pitch' in the piece - and this thread has evidenced that pretty extensively - then different ensembles might take different views on the pitch they record at.

David Wulstan's theories about pitch were always controversial, weren't they?

But while those thrilling high soprano parts worked well in Taverner and Shepherd in particular, I have never heard the Tallis Lamentations done in that way, and I didn't think I wanted to - probably because I don't expect to be thrilled by this work; flayed maybe, but not thrilled.

[jean]

The metaphor is inconsistent within itself , is the point.

Is it, though? The fact that the bleaching comes before the flaying in the sentence doesn't mean that is the order in which those events occurred in time.

[teamsaint]

Is it, though? The fact that the bleaching comes before the flaying in the sentence doesn't mean that is the order in which those events occurred in time.

No it doesn't , but I made the point about timescale earlier. ( The assumption being that bleached skeletons are from a much earlier time, and that the events that led to them being in that condition , the flaying, would very likely be unknown at the later point. ) It just doesn't work well for me. But the more important point was its unnecessary and potentially offensive nature. And though we do all use language carelessly , from time to time,in a written script for public broadcast, I think that sort if usage is out of place.

[Richard Tarleton]

But you could tell if these performances were all-male or if women were singing, too?

Not sure if I correctly understood the question, ferney - I thought the pitch issue referred to whether it was A=440, or whatever? Not the gender of the singers?

(my lute CDs include a bewildering array of pitches - A = 440, 392, 415.....)

[jean]

But the more important point was its unnecessary and potentially offensive nature.

I wouldn't listen too closely to the text of those Lamentations, then - and as for the Psalms...

I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart also in the midst of my body is even like melting wax.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaveth to my gums: and thou shalt bring me into the dust of death.
For many dogs are come about me: and the council of the wicked layeth siege against me. They pierced my hands and my feet; I may tell all my bones.

But seriously - offensive to whom?

.

[jean]

...I thought the pitch issue referred to whether it was A=440, or whatever? Not the gender of the singers?

I thought it was a question of whether it was voiced for the original (?) ATTBarB, or transposed up a fifth to SAATB, to give the sops a chance.

I don't think any of these versions go above an F, which isn't Clerkes of Oxenford territory (which is what I meant when I said they wouldn't be wanted here).