BaL 31.03.18 - Tallis: Lamentations of Jeremiah

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Not sure if I correctly understood the question, ferney - I thought the pitch issue referred to whether it was A=440, or whatever? Not the gender of the singers?

I think (I've got a bit lost since the last time I looked at this Thread) that jean is correct in #60, in that the only distinction of pitch made in the programme concerned those recordings which used women in the performance and therefore were transposed higher than those with male-only ensembles. I think that attempts to understand Bbm's comment about the presenter "being PC a bit, was she, imo, then?" has led to subsequent confusion.

[Dave2002]

Are you sure it was a BaL and not this Early Music Show*?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01bs9dg

(ed.) *it was VERY GOOD indeed.

Yes - I think you are right. Sorry for my mistake. I did look out a CD and order it afterwards.

I am really surprised at the number of people here who seem to be familiar with the Lamentations. I have yet to be convinced that I should be investigating those, but that's probably because I really am very ignorant about those and the performance styles etc.

I may try to rectify this lack over the next year or so,

[jean]

It will enrich your life immeasurably.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It will enrich your life immeasurably.

[kernelbogey]

I believe I know the Lamentations also from a setting by the matchless Orlando de Lassus

Are Tallis and Lassus setting the same text? Anyone know?

[rauschwerk]

Are Tallis and Lassus setting the same text? Anyone know?

I have sung both. Certainly Lassus set more text than Tallis, since he used the lessons for Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday. So did Victoria, but he seems to have used a different selection of texts. It's all rather complicated.

[Richard Tarleton]

I thought it was a question of whether it was voiced for the original (?) ATTBarB, or transposed up a fifth to SAATB, to give the sops a chance.

Ah yes, thanks (and ferney). Definitely getting a bit out of my depth here

[DracoM]

I have sung both. Certainly Lassus set more text than Tallis, since he used the lessons for Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday. So did Victoria, but he seems to have used a different selection of texts. It's all rather complicated.

Snap.

[kernelbogey]

Snap.

Wonder what the latin word for that is....
Thanks, Rauschwerk and Draco.

[rauschwerk]

I have sung a good deal of Renaissance polyphony in my time, but I have to say that I find settings of the Lamentations to be among the hardest music to interpret! In the case of the Robert White 5 voice set, I have found Sally Dunkley's performing edition to be invaluable.

[jean]

Certainly Lassus set more text than Tallis, since he used the lessons for Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday. So did Victoria, but he seems to have used a different selection of texts. It's all rather complicated.

Tallis uses the Maundy Thursday text, but he doesn't set it all - not even the whole of the first Lesson, and he doesn't set any of the second.

This alone would make it difficult to use the settings liturgically. Another dfficulty is that each Lesson is followed immediately by a Responsory, and everyone wants to hear a polyphonic setting of those.

(I am going by the text in the Liber Usualis, and there may have been changes made in the text selected from the biblical Lamentations between Tallis's time and the recent past - my copy is 1963, that is post-Council of Trent, pre- more recent liturgical reforms.)

.

[vinteuil]

.

Wonder what the latin word for that is....

.

... google suggests 'frangeretur'.

Not very - - - snappy....

[ ... I'm sure Jean will have a much better thought here.}


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[jean]

(I have no idea what Draco is snapping about so no, I haven't.)

[DracoM]

Snap.

........meaning that I have sung both and had the same experience.
Childish card game> 'Snap!!!'

[kernelbogey]

....This alone would make it difficult to use the settings liturgically. Another dfficulty is that each Lesson is followed immediately by a Responsory, and everyone wants to hear a polyphonic setting of those. .....

IIRC, Alexandra's (tentative) theory is that Tallis composed it for private use by a recusant family. Perhaps that does not affect your argument, though .