BaL 12.10.19 - Mozart: Serenade no. 10 in B flat “Gran Partita” K361

[silvestrione]

Absolutely. How disappointing to find a BaL reviewer dismissive or cursory of HIPPs (not for the first time...). Critics of all people need to continuously update their knowledge and awareness....

Not for the first time, I sense some parti pris here. Unfair, in my judgement (and I notice also that some who have not even heard the programme have joined in). She was very knowledgeable about the piece and the performances, had thought about them, and had long experience of the issues. She made it clear she did not regard HIPP as a separate category, and , mainly, dismissed them because they were not as interesting or successful interpretatively. (The quick remark about control over the instruments did not apply to all, clearly; anyway, reject it if you have listened to them more recently than she has, I say!).

The examples played demonstrated an extraordinary range of colours and textures, and individual approaches, including with original instruments, but just as much with modern instruments, which could sound so different coming from the BPO winds, the French group, Jack Brymer's group, the Finnish group (was it?), and so on.

[Keraulophone]

Critics of all people need to continuously update their knowledge and awareness...

...essential, one might think, for someone who has been Executive Producer, Essential Classics, BBC Radio 3. Seems quite a cosy choice as a BaL reviewer.

It seemed that Ms Devonold was so enamoured of Maurice Bourge and his ilk that a HIPP recording was unlikely to be her final choice. Indeed, it was quite surprising to me that she didn't hand M. Bourge the palm.

I've been spending a pleasant evening listening to several versions of K361 on Spotify in addition to those in my LP/CD library. It's being reminded of recordings that one has collected over several decades that has become the main benefit of BaL, now that the programme itself has changed beyond recognition since the days of John Lade and Richard Osborne.

[Dave2002]

Am I really seriously misquoting you? You said: “The Berlin recording has a very obvious echo which shows up even on my iPad.” I don’t think it’s unfair to suggest you didn’t like the recording quality. In fact, it has no such echo, just an acceptable and agreeable degree of reverberation. But I blame your iPad, not you!

You are still misinterpreting me. Just give up. Sorry.

Compared with some of the close miked versions it had a significant ambience - which some will like, some may not. I never suggested I didn't like it, just that it was there. I'm sorry if my use of the word "echo" rather than "ambience" or "reverberation" misled you. I did not write that I didn't like it. I don't blame my iPad - but I might play the thing again through different kit in a day or two.

[Dave2002]

Did she gloss over a London Winds, Michael Collins.

I don’t suppose the President’s Own US Marine Corps Band didn’t even get a mention.

I'm trying to fathom out the double negative here!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

She made it clear she did not regard HIPP as a separate category, and , mainly, dismissed them because they were not as interesting or successful interpretatively.

I don't think that you're doing Ms Devonald any favours here, silves!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

With regard to earlier comments about the inadequacies of HIPP playing in the 1980s, I recall it being being pretty good by then. The only really bad HIPP orchestral playing I can recall was a Proms performance of Handel's Messiah in the 1970s(?) under Christopher Hogwood.. It was quite terrible in places - to call it amateurish would be an insult to those who play for nothing.

[ardcarp]

With regard to earlier comments about the inadequacies of HIPP playing in the 1980s, I recall it being being pretty good by then.

Yes it was 'pretty good' by then. But the Gran Partita is effectively played by wind soloists and IMVHO both brass and reed-instrument performance has improved hugely since the 1980s. Hearing for instance oboe (d'amore, da caccia) obbligati in the hands of of today's soloists (eg in Florilegium or The Old Street Band), you don't even have to think of the low-tech nature of the instruments that are producing such wonderful, fluent, beautifully-phrased lines.

Then there is the point that Classical HIPP probably got off to a later start than Baroque HIPP.

I can't quite see what the fuss is about, actually. Sarah Devenold did suggest one of the HIPP performance as being superior to the others, so she effectively left us with a HIPP choice if we want one.

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes, she mentioned Zefiro on the shortlist - all to the good. And yes, it was a good survey all-round. But only one excerpt from any HIPPs version was played (Zefiro), and the other 3 versions mentioned were too summarily dismissed, with phrases like "squeaks and squawks" and "still wrestling with their instruments" sounding somewhat unhelpfully clichéd, generalised and unfair.

Here's Stanley Sadie in Gramophone, 4/89, in his review/comparison of Hogwood and Bruggen:
"Two new versions of one of the most taxing pieces in the wind repertoire, both played with total professionalism, and technically with nothing to fear from comparison with modern instruments..."

[Dave2002]

From the listener's point of view, surely any attempt to play on "authentic" instruments - which if I recall is not the same as HIPP - should sound different, as otherwise what's the purpose? If the requirement for players of such instruments is to realise the same kind of sound and technical "perfection" as players of modern instruments made to today's standards, then isn't that a complete waste of time and effort?

I would argue that there are differences, and that the efforts are worthwhile, but not if the end result is to sound exactly the same.

[Stanfordian]

From my several recordings my first port of call here is Amadeus Winds directed by Hogwood. Sounds great to me!

[Dave2002]

I’m losing it here.

On my iPad I only seem to be able to get BBC Sounds from the Record Review page, and no links to the recommended recordings from the Gran Partita BAL, so I’ve no idea if the recordings are CDs, downloads or currently available etc. based on the BBC info. I have listened to the BAL again - over all pretty decent. The comments about period performances are about 45 minutes in from the overall programme start, and last maybe 3 minutes.

The Maurice Bourgue recording only seems to be available as MP3 or via streaming/download sites, though I only searched Amazon and Presto.

[Pulcinella]

I’m losing it here.

On my iPad I only seem to be able to get BBC Sounds from the Record Review page, and no links to the recommended recordings from the Gran Partita BAL, so I’ve no idea if the recordings are CDs, downloads or currently available etc. based on the BBC info. I have listened to the BAL again - over all pretty decent. The comments about period performances are about 45 minutes in from the overall programme start, and last maybe 3 minutes.

The Maurice Bourgue recording only seems to be available as MP3 or via streaming/download sites, though I only searched Amazon and Presto.

Record numbers given in the listing here, all looking ok on my iPad:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0009b8q

[Bryn]

I’m losing it here.

On my iPad I only seem to be able to get BBC Sounds from the Record Review page, and no links to the recommended recordings from the Gran Partita BAL, so I’ve no idea if the recordings are CDs, downloads or currently available etc. based on the BBC info. I have listened to the BAL again - over all pretty decent. The comments about period performances are about 45 minutes in from the overall programme start, and last maybe 3 minutes.

The Maurice Bourgue recording only seems to be available as MP3 or via streaming/download sites, though I only searched Amazon and Presto.

https://tower.jp/item/319811/Mozart：-Gran-Partita-K-361---Ensemble-A-Vent-Maurice-Bourgue

QOBUZ also has it at lossless CD rate.

[Dave2002]

https://tower.jp/item/319811/Mozart：...aurice-Bourgue

QOBUZ also has it at lossless CD rate.

Are you fluent in Japanese? !!

Pulcinella: Thanks - I see now one has to scroll most of the way down through the playlist to get to the CD numbers. However only two are listed, and Sarah D did actually suggest that at least 5 or more were worth listening to.

The diversion via BBC Sounds is not helpful.

[Bryn]

Are you fluent in Japanese? !!

No, but https://tower.jp/site/buyee/about_en...rc=y-tower_red