BaL 3.03.18 - Mahler: Symphony no. 7

[Barbirollians]

His Lied von der Erde without hesitation (with Klaus König and Agnes Baltsa who inhabit their "roles" completely IMO).

Thanks duly ordered.

[Bryn]

Thanks duly ordered.

You will not be disappointed.

[richardfinegold]

Staying O/T (sorry!) but, thanks to the kindness of a fellow-forumista, I've just been listening to an off-air recording of the celebrated 10 September 1997 Proms performance of the 5th. While I am no great fan of later Bernstein Mahler, I should be eating my words, in view of this performance, in which Bernstein seems to have found an inspiration that's not quite present to the same extent in the DG Frankfurt Alte Oper recording of a few days before. Maybe it was the Prommers - or being in the RAH - but there is a electricity to the occasion/performance which makes me overlook LB's occasional liberties with tempi (his Mahler is sui generis in any case). The quality of the VPO's playing would be enough to make one forgive all of his excesses (not that many really - he doesn't drag out the Adagietto, for instance). I envy Petrushka being there - I would have been speechless/walking on air/transmigrated afterwards - that feeling one gets when one has experienced something musically quite exceptional. The 5th and the 7th are difficult symphonies to bring off convincingly (and I am definitely not smitten by LB's later NYPO 7th) but this performance is one which I will be very happy to return to alongside Kondrashin, Haitink, Roth et al.

Hate to nitpick, HD, but in 1997 Bernstein would have been dead by 7 years, so yes, that concert would have been musically, and otherwise, exceptional. On a more serious note, I am a bit confused by your praise for LB in light of your evaluation earlier, which I believe was something like “ick”. Can you clarify? I had lumped you into the “Bernstein Hater” brigade, perhaps unfairly so

[Bergonzi]

The tenor horn at the start does not inspire confidence, but I'l give it a go.

Actually, it also seems a bit pedestrian, so far.

I haven't heard my copy for some years, but I did note of the CD - "Not a very good performance!" I will listen again tomorrow, hopefully.

[HighlandDougie]

Hate to nitpick, HD, but in 1997 Bernstein would have been dead by 7 years, so yes, that concert would have been musically, and otherwise, exceptional. On a more serious note, I am a bit confused by your praise for LB in light of your evaluation earlier, which I believe was something like “ick”. Can you clarify? I had lumped you into the “Bernstein Hater” brigade, perhaps unfairly so

My typo - the perils of using an iPad with clumsy fingers. 1987, of course. I did say, “ick”, as a generalisation about later LB recordings, particularly in comparison with those made for Columbia in the 1960s. Not just Mahler but Tchaikovsky and Dvorák. But, as the 1987 Prom Mahler 5 points up, generalisations are foolish things to make, as well as being intellectually lazy, as there is not very much “icky” about that particular performance. I still think that there can be just a bit too much of LB knowing better than the composer but, as Richard B eloquently reminded us, maybe that was his right. More generally, these posts have had me go back to reading about LB’s life post-NYPO. I was struck by the prophecy of the long-suffering Felicia Bernstein that he would die a bitter and lonely old man, which she admittedly made when he announced that he was leaving her. Much of the excesses and egotism of his later behaviour seem to have been to try to disprove that. Was it reflected in his music-making? I don’t know but I kept thinking of “Citizen Kane”. I owe him at the very least my fascination with Mahler, kindled by hearing his recording of the 7th symphony in 1966 on the Third Programme. And that 1987 Mahler 5th is ample proof, if any was ever needed, of his possibly unique genius as a musician.

[Barbirollians]

My typo - the perils of using an iPad with clumsy fingers. 1987, of course. I did say, “ick”, as a generalisation about later LB recordings, particularly in comparison with those made for Columbia in the 1960s. Not just Mahler but Tchaikovsky and Dvorák. But, as the 1987 Prom Mahler 5 points up, generalisations are foolish things to make, as well as being intellectually lazy, as there is not very much “icky” about that particular performance. I still think that there can be just a bit too much of LB knowing better than the composer but, as Richard B eloquently reminded us, maybe that was his right. More generally, these posts have had me go back to reading about LB’s life post-NYPO. I was struck by the prophecy of the long-suffering Felicia Bernstein that he would die a bitter and lonely old man, which she admittedly made when he announced that he was leaving her. Much of the excesses and egotism of his later behaviour seem to have been to try to disprove that. Was it reflected in his music-making? I don’t know but I kept thinking of “Citizen Kane”. I owe him at the very least my fascination with Mahler, kindled by hearing his recording of the 7th symphony in 1966 on the Third Programme. And that 1987 Mahler 5th is ample proof, if any was ever needed, of his possibly unique genius as a musician.

Interesting interview with Bernstein's son Alexander in The Times this morning . Listening to the recording of Mahler 5 that they released with the VPO last night after a while I was struck how this gives the lie entirely to the performances being about Bernstein it gets completely to the heart of this music and does transfix you . Once I have started playing it there is no chance of me turning it off to the very end.

[BBMmk2]

You're not alone - I agree. I also sometimes think that No 7 also sounds like Mahler self-parodying and providing a grotesque pastiche of his own No 5 - Mahler's 5th Through The Looking Glass.

Very interesting to hear SJ's information that Mahler tried also to programme No. 7 with the Mastersingers Prelude (substantiated above by Petrushka).

I felt slightly short-changed by this BAL, and the narrow band of performances considered, but that's probably because I've lived with the piece for getting on 40 years and so this programme wasn't aimed at me. Omitting Gielen/BPO live seems remiss in the extreme though.

Having loved the Abbado Chicago since it came out, I've never heard the Berlin recording - I shall avail myself of Qobuz to listen to it. I did like the phantasmagorical cacophony of the bells at towards the end!!



I was at both those performances too, and quite agree with you Pet. As those above who heard the broadcast say, we were very lucky!

Cali, needless to say, I love the Berlin account. Needless to say the Chicago recording is very good as well, maybe more earthy?

[richardfinegold]

Cali, needless to say, I love the Berlin account. Needless to say the Chicago recording is very good as well, maybe more earthy?

I watched the Lucerne version Wednesday. I think that the three Abbado versions that I have heard —are there more—are pretty consistent, the main differences being the sounds of the respective Orchestras.

[BBMmk2]

I watched the Lucerne version Wednesday. I think that the three Abbado versions that I have heard —are there more—are pretty consistent, the main differences being the sounds of the respective Orchestras.

Perhaps it's the Chicago sound, of which you know very well, RFG!

[richardfinegold]

My typo - the perils of using an iPad with clumsy fingers. 1987, of course. I did say, “ick”, as a generalisation about later LB recordings, particularly in comparison with those made for Columbia in the 1960s. Not just Mahler but Tchaikovsky and Dvorák. But, as the 1987 Prom Mahler 5 points up, generalisations are foolish things to make, as well as being intellectually lazy, as there is not very much “icky” about that particular performance. I still think that there can be just a bit too much of LB knowing better than the composer but, as Richard B eloquently reminded us, maybe that was his right. More generally, these posts have had me go back to reading about LB’s life post-NYPO. I was struck by the prophecy of the long-suffering Felicia Bernstein that he would die a bitter and lonely old man, which she admittedly made when he announced that he was leaving her. Much of the excesses and egotism of his later behaviour seem to have been to try to disprove that. Was it reflected in his music-making? I don’t know but I kept thinking of “Citizen Kane”. I owe him at the very least my fascination with Mahler, kindled by hearing his recording of the 7th symphony in 1966 on the Third Programme. And that 1987 Mahler 5th is ample proof, if any was ever needed, of his possibly unique genius as a musician.

The iPad gets us all in the end
How to account for the eccentricities of the late Bernstein? And there were a few—most notably the Pathetique and the New World Symphonies.(Relative to some other Composers that he performed, I think that as he aged his Mahler stayed relatively consistent).
First of all, it wasn’t a constant; it was only certain works that were given the treatment . Perhaps he was searching for his inner Celibidache, trying to hard to look behind the notes as he was searching for new meaning in old familiar texts. At least give mim points for trying, and not just re-recording the same music every decade because he could

[Alison]

I watched the Lucerne version Wednesday. I think that the three Abbado versions that I have heard —are there more—are pretty consistent, the main differences being the sounds of the respective Orchestras.

And in that respect The Berlin Philharmonic has never been my favourite Mahler orchestra, regardless of conductor.

Difficult to explain: you just don’t get that sort of fresh, occasionally fragile, out of doors sound!

Too much saturated fat? It’s all my problem I know.

[HighlandDougie]

First of all, it wasn’t a constant; it was only certain works that were given the treatment . Perhaps he was searching for his inner Celibidache, trying to hard to look behind the notes as he was searching for new meaning in old familiar texts. At least give mim points for trying, and not just re-recording the same music every decade because he could

Most certainly we should all give him points for trying. I don't think that he had ever performed the "Enigma Variations" before the BBC Symphony performance (I may be wrong) and, although the result had some people spluttering in indignation, I think that it came from the heart, rather than as some kind of exaggerated and thereby deliberately sardonic take on Edwardian England, which is something I've read recently. DG has brought out a big box, à la HvK, of LB's DG, Decca and American Decca recordings (CDs, DVDs and the Blu-Ray of the LvB cycle) which is quite tempting (due for release in the US very shortly). I keep looking at Amazon UK in the hope that Brown's Books might suddenly discover that they have copies to offload cheaply.

[BBMmk2]

And in that respect The Berlin Philharmonic has never been my favourite Mahler orchestra, regardless of conductor.

Difficult to explain: you just don’t get that sort of fresh, occasionally fragile, out of doors sound!

Too much saturated fat? It’s all my problem I know.

Always interesting to hear other Forumistas about their views on any given subject. So many concerning one or two different ensembles.

[richardfinegold]

And in that respect The Berlin Philharmonic has never been my favourite Mahler orchestra, regardless of conductor.

Difficult to explain: you just don’t get that sort of fresh, occasionally fragile, out of doors sound!

Too much saturated fat? It’s all my problem I know.

I don't know anyone who agrees with me but my favorite Mahler 6 is Karajan/BPO. At the climax of the adagio the BPO simply soars and sounds like they could escape Earth's atmosphere. I don't know if that was what Mahler asks for, but it is one of the most stunning sounds ever captured. Otoh, I do love the way Solti positively makes the basses growl at the opening of the work; it sounds like a cage of Raptors awaiting fresh meat in Jurassic Park.

[richardfinegold]

Most certainly we should all give him points for trying. I don't think that he had ever performed the "Enigma Variations" before the BBC Symphony performance (I may be wrong) and, although the result had some people spluttering in indignation, I think that it came from the heart, rather than as some kind of exaggerated and thereby deliberately sardonic take on Edwardian England, which is something I've read recently. DG has brought out a big box, à la HvK, of LB's DG, Decca and American Decca recordings (CDs, DVDs and the Blu-Ray of the LvB cycle) which is quite tempting (due for release in the US very shortly). I keep looking at Amazon UK in the hope that Brown's Books might suddenly discover that they have copies to offload cheaply.

I remember seeing a DVD, I think taken from a British TV broadcast, of LB attempting to rehearse the Enigma with an Orchestra that was up in arms and not shy about letting him know.