BaL 3.03.18 - Mahler: Symphony no. 7

[HighlandDougie]

Re. the Abravanel, did that not have a timp. pitch error at the start of the 3rd movement (as highlighted in the Gramaphone review of its initial release in the U.K.)? I did eventually replace my LP version with a CD issue. Must check it out at some point.

The review was by Deryck Cooke, no less, in July 1966. Because the Bernstein/NYPO had been released earlier that year, Cooke devoted much of the review to a comparison between that recording and that by Maurice Abravanel and the Utah Symphony. This is all at second hand as I've discovered an interesting doctoral thesis online [Mahler in Utah : Maurice Abravanel and the Utah Symphony's performances and recordings of Gustav Mahler's symphonies (1951-1979) by Shih-Ni Prim, University of Iowa], which quotes selectively from the review, although doesn't mention anything about pitch errors in the timps. I've listened to the CD and - cloth-eared as I am - I'm struggling to hear anything too disastrously wrong with the opening bars - the pitch is maybe slightly too low but it doesn't detract from the music. Cooke preferred Bernstein but was prepared to concede that Abravanel - and I paraphrase - was rather better than one might have expected. "Under-characterised", by comparison with the more expressive LB.

On the topic of LB's approach to Mahler, Ms Shih-Ni Prim writes: "Bernstein's intense interpretation of Mahler can also be explained by his deep identification with the composer; Bernstein performed Mahler's music as if it were his own: "But when I perform Mahler I feel as if I have written the music. 'What a brilliant key change I made here', I tell myself." Not everyone embraced Bernstein's identifying with Mahler. Jay Gottlieb remembered his conversation with Nadia Boulanger about Bernstein; he said, "I can tell you what those conversations sounded like: NB telling LB that he should calm down and stop claiming to be the reincarnation of Mahler!'". I have much enjoyed wasting my afternoon reading the thesis!

[silvestrione]

Lots of learned and thoughtful posts to enjoy on here.

Am I alone in finding nothing ironic or threatening or disturbing or unsettling or whatever it is supposed to be in the last movement? A bit manic at times perhaps, and in some performances. It comes across to me as mostly exuberant and high-spirited. Surely it's a response to Wagner, where the Mastersingers and other groups parade in, and some do formal dances? In the Mahler, there's a lot more of the mastersinger-pomposity, and wilder exuberance from the populace! Celebratory, anyway.

The night-pieces and scherzo could also be related back to the opera, perhaps (no doubt have been by commentators?), as the rhythm of that music drama goes from night (with dark episodes, serenades, and unsettling moments) to day. Not the first movement, though...

[Petrushka]

Lots of learned and thoughtful posts to enjoy on here.

Am I alone in finding nothing ironic or threatening or disturbing or unsettling or whatever it is supposed to be in the last movement? A bit manic at times perhaps, and in some performances. It comes across to me as mostly exuberant and high-spirited. Surely it's a response to Wagner, where the Mastersingers and other groups parade in, and some do formal dances? In the Mahler, there's a lot more of the mastersinger-pomposity, and wilder exuberance from the populace! Celebratory, anyway.

The night-pieces and scherzo could also be related back to the opera, perhaps (no doubt have been by commentators?), as the rhythm of that music drama goes from night (with dark episodes, serenades, and unsettling moments) to day. Not the first movement, though...

As if to point up the connection, in early performances of the 7th, Mahler himself included Wagner's Meistersinger Overture to begin the evening - and no interval between them.

See here for instance: http://archief.concertgebouworkest.n...rchive/search/

[richardfinegold]

I'm not sure that Bruno Walter ever conducted the 7th symphony, at least in public performance. Like Klemperer, who didn't much care for the 1st, 3rd and 5th symphonies and who was never asked to conduct the 8th, Walter stuck to certain symphonies: 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and 9th. He was quoted as saying that the other symphonies were too difficult for the public of the time. And, if I may be forgiven the pedantry, Leonard Bernstein's formal tutelage was courtesy of Fritz Reiner, Serge Koussevitzky and, significantly with regard to Mahler, Dimitri Mitropoulous, rather than courtesy of Bruno Walter. LB did, of course, get his big break with the NYPO in 1943 when Walter was ill - and Walter gave him some tips on how to handle the orchestra. I don't have Nigel Simeone's LB's Letters to hand so I may be completely wrong but I don't recall from them that LB was much influenced by Walter in terms of musical interpretation.

Bernstein was Walter’s assistant at the time of that 1943 debut. Presumably he would have some interactions with him that went beyond prepping for his emergency debut concert, and we know that Walter regularly conducted Mahler in those years.
Also, Bernstein wasn’t the most generous person in terms of acknowledging influences—see his treatment of Mitropolous

[richardfinegold]

This is how I understood it, too, HighDoug - and comparing Bernstein's recordings of those Mahler works that Walter did record, I don't detect any particular sign of the older man's tutelage.

Perhaps your ability to recognize schmaltz isn’t as fine tuned as someone who grew up eating the stuff...It’s a new thought for me, but after hearing a program about Bernstein’s time as Assistant Conductor there in the 40s it I don’t think that he would have been able to avoid Walter’s Mahler if he tried. And while LB certainly doesn’t ape Walter, I think I see some similarities in the more sentimental Mahlerian music. Walter’s critics used to say that when he hit a beautiful moment, he would melt. An exaggeration, surely, but like all stereotyping, perhaps based on a kernel of truth? And when people criticize LB as being self indulgent, isn’t it for his sentimentality first and foremost?

[HighlandDougie]

Bernstein was Walter’s assistant at the time of that 1943 debut. Presumably he would have some interactions with him that went beyond prepping for his emergency debut concert, and we know that Walter regularly conducted Mahler in those years.
Also, Bernstein wasn’t the most generous person in terms of acknowledging influences—see his treatment of Mitropolous

Richard - apologies if this seems like nit-picking but LB was Artur Rodzinski’s assistant at the NYPO. Bruno Walter, who was based on the West Coast, was a guest conductor for a short series of concerts in 1943, which included the concert when Bernstein was asked by the management to take over from Walter at very short notice (truly the stuff of myth). Walter became “Music Adviser” to the NYPO in 1947 after Rodzinski resigned. Walter resigned from that position in 1949 when Mitropoulos and Stokowski were appointed as joint principal conductors. LB was conductor of the Stokowski-founded New York City Symphony Orchestra from 1945 to 1947. LB certainly revered Walter, not least because of Walter’s connection to Mahler, so it’s perfectly likely that LB assimilated any Walter-conducted Mahler which he heard. BW conducted the NYPO in Mahler’s 2nd, 4th, 5th and 9th plus DLvdE at various times between 1943 and 1950, including the 4th when LB was still Rodzinski’s assistant.

[BBMmk2]

People say that LB was rather self indulgent in his later recordings of Mahler, eg Symphony No.5(RCO)

[Barbirollians]

People say that LB was rather self indulgent in his later recordings of Mahler, eg Symphony No.5(RCO)

Do they ? the Bernstein Mahler 5 I think is with the VPO and is commonly cited as a highlight of his later cycle and a leading recommendation - as has been discussed on here the amazing Proms performance from that summer which transfixed me when broadcast. The Cgebouw 9 on the other hand did get quite a slating.

[BBMmk2]

Do they ? the Bernstein Mahler 5 I think is with the VPO and is commonly cited as a highlight of his later cycle and a leading recommendation - as has been discussed on here the amazing Proms performance from that summer which transfixed me who broadcast. The Cgebouw 9 on the other hand did get quite a slating.

Actually after looking yes S9, most likely the contender.

[Petrushka]

Do they ? the Bernstein Mahler 5 I think is with the VPO and is commonly cited as a highlight of his later cycle and a leading recommendation - as has been discussed on here the amazing Proms performance from that summer which transfixed me who broadcast. The Cgebouw 9 on the other hand did get quite a slating.

It was my good fortune to have attended both of the Bernstein London performances of Mahler 5 and 9 given in 1985 RCO (the 9th) and 1987 VPO (the 5th). Both of them were amongst the greatest concert hall experiences of my life. If I ever get to hear anything a quarter as great again I will be very lucky indeed. The alleged slowness of the 9th was not particularly apparent in the hall which only goes to show how very different listening to a recording can often be.

[richardfinegold]

Richard - apologies if this seems like nit-picking but LB was Artur Rodzinski’s assistant at the NYPO. Bruno Walter, who was based on the West Coast, was a guest conductor for a short series of concerts in 1943, which included the concert when Bernstein was asked by the management to take over from Walter at very short notice (truly the stuff of myth). Walter became “Music Adviser” to the NYPO in 1947 after Rodzinski resigned. Walter resigned from that position in 1949 when Mitropoulos and Stokowski were appointed as joint principal conductors. LB was conductor of the Stokowski-founded New York City Symphony Orchestra from 1945 to 1947. LB certainly revered Walter, not least because of Walter’s connection to Mahler, so it’s perfectly likely that LB assimilated any Walter-conducted Mahler which he heard. BW conducted the NYPO in Mahler’s 2nd, 4th, 5th and 9th plus DLvdE at various times between 1943 and 1950, including the 4th when LB was still Rodzinski’s assistant.

There Is a nightly radio show here called Exploring Music. This weeks programming was devoted to LB. Monday’s show was devoted to the debut. The host stated that Bernstein’s titlewas Assistant Conductor . That is why he had the responsibility for substituting for the indisposed Walter. I didn’t fact check it, but the show is usually accurate.
I erred in describing LB as “Walter’s assistant “ because I thought BW was the MD after Barbirolli left so thank you for that clarification.
At any rate the basic point, that LB had some proximity to BW and would perhaps have heard many of the Mahler works for the first time as led by BW, still stands. My only point here is that I believe some of Walter’s intrpretive ideas may have shaped the young LB in what I would assume had to have been his first exposures to Mahler’s works, and that LB would have been susceptible to being influenced by BW because of some shared traits in temperament between the two.
And it’s just a hypothesis.

[richardfinegold]

It was my good fortune to have attended both of the Bernstein London performances of Mahler 5 and 9 given in 1985 RCO (the 9th) and 1987 VPO (the 5th). Both of them were amongst the greatest concert hall experiences of my life. If I ever get to hear anything a quarter as great again I will be very lucky indeed. The alleged slowness of the 9th was not particularly apparent in the hall which only goes to show how very different listening to a recording can often be.

I only saw LB once live, in Tchaikovsky 4, mid 1970s in New York. He leapt in in the air at the beginning of IV, lost his balance and fell to the floor and scrambled back to the podium while the Orchestra played on. We all had quite a laugh in the cheap seats

[Richard Barrett]

I'm not that much of a Bernstein fan but (I was thinking of this in connection with Solti): in the 1960s and 1970s, if a conductor wanted to perform Mahler that was because they really wanted to perform Mahler. In the 21st century every conductor performs Mahler because he's such a popular composer and it's expected of them. I'm sure some of them still do it with the zeal and commitment that Bernstein, Solti, Haitink and Kubelík, to say nothing of their predecessors, had to have. But probably quite a few of them don't. I'm inclined to cut Bernstein some slack. By the time he made his DG recordings he had lived with that music for longer than most other living conductors at the time. His recorded interpretations at least deserve to be taken seriously as the view of someone whose involvement in that music was so deep-seated. They shouldn't be written off as self-indulgent.

[visualnickmos]

I'm not that much of a Bernstein fan but (I was thinking of this in connection with Solti): in the 1960s and 1970s, if a conductor wanted to perform Mahler that was because they really wanted to perform Mahler. In the 21st century every conductor performs Mahler because he's such a popular composer and it's expected of them. I'm sure some of them still do it with the zeal and commitment that Bernstein, Solti, Haitink and Kubelík, to say nothing of their predecessors, had to have. But probably quite a few of them don't. I'm inclined to cut Bernstein some slack. By the time he made his DG recordings he had lived with that music for longer than most other living conductors at the time. His recorded interpretations at least deserve to be taken seriously as the view of someone whose involvement in that music was so deep-seated. They shouldn't be written off as self-indulgent.

[Barbirollians]

I'm not that much of a Bernstein fan but (I was thinking of this in connection with Solti): in the 1960s and 1970s, if a conductor wanted to perform Mahler that was because they really wanted to perform Mahler. In the 21st century every conductor performs Mahler because he's such a popular composer and it's expected of them. I'm sure some of them still do it with the zeal and commitment that Bernstein, Solti, Haitink and Kubelík, to say nothing of their predecessors, had to have. But probably quite a few of them don't. I'm inclined to cut Bernstein some slack. By the time he made his DG recordings he had lived with that music for longer than most other living conductors at the time. His recorded interpretations at least deserve to be taken seriously as the view of someone whose involvement in that music was so deep-seated. They shouldn't be written off as self-indulgent.

Agree entirely . I have the 1,2,4,5 and 7th from that cycle. The one mistake I would say is the boy treble in the Fourth.