BaL 3.03.18 - Mahler: Symphony no. 7

[Richard Barrett]

I am sure he would be delighted to add a few words about himself.

"That's enough about Mahler - let's talk about ME!"

[verismissimo]

"That's enough about Mahler ...

How true, how true.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.
I must pay attention in class.

These days, "lines" would be an ineffective punishment.

[jayne lee wilson]

"That's enough about Mahler - let's talk about ME!"

Sounds like Bernstein on DG....

[gurnemanz]

I like Sinopoli. Not mentioned much around here or on BaL as far as I remember.

PS Mentioned by Dougie and Beef

[Barbirollians]

I think that is unfair about Bernstein . For some conductors the recordings are about how marvellous and novel they are or what splendid new insights they think they bring . Two very different but to my ears self regarding conductors gone to mind- Benjamin Zander and Currentzis.

I don't think that ever applied to Bernstein.Sometines his attempts to squeeze more out of a score led to diminishing returns but I doubt it was ever about him.

[richardfinegold]

I think that is unfair about Bernstein . For some conductors the recordings are about how marvellous and novel they are or what splendid new insights they think they bring . Two very different but to my ears self regarding conductors gone to mind- Benjamin Zander and Currentzis.

I don't think that ever applied to Bernstein.Sometines his attempts to squeeze more out of a score led to diminishing returns but I doubt it was ever about him.

Well put, Barbs. Again, Jansons springs to mind when cite Conductors who want us to know it’s “their Mahler”.
LB always tried to identify with the Composer as much as possible. With Mahler, there was a considerable amount that they had in common, and I think LB can be forgiven if he identified a bit to closely.
We know that Mahler’s music can withstand widely divergent approaches, and LB Art may be a bit to over the top for some British tastes. Heart on sleeve has usually not been the preferred English brand of expression. It may be more of a Jewish characteristic, and I suspect that LB owed some of his Mahler sensibility to his tutelage under Bruno Walter

[Bergonzi]

AND Bruno Walter was in my opinion (and still is) the greatest Mahler interpreter. Sadly I do not think he recorded the 7th Symphony.

[cloughie]

Well put, Barbs. Again, Jansons springs to mind when cite Conductors who want us to know it’s “their Mahler”.
LB always tried to identify with the Composer as much as possible. With Mahler, there was a considerable amount that they had in common, and I think LB can be forgiven if he identified a bit to closely.
We know that Mahler’s music can withstand widely divergent approaches, and LB Art may be a bit to over the top for some British tastes. Heart on sleeve has usually not been the preferred English brand of expression. It may be more of a Jewish characteristic, and I suspect that LB owed some of his Mahler sensibility to his tutelage under Bruno Walter

I would think Walter's tutelage was very important as he was probably a pioneer in bring Mahler to the fore in the late 40s and 50s. Looking at the riches and choice of recordings and performances available it is strange to think how few there were back then. Were all the Symphonies available on LP in 1957? I would guess only Scherchen in No 7!

[Beef Oven!]

Well put, Barbs. Again, Jansons springs to mind when cite Conductors who want us to know it’s “their Mahler”.
LB always tried to identify with the Composer as much as possible. With Mahler, there was a considerable amount that they had in common, and I think LB can be forgiven if he identified a bit to closely.
We know that Mahler’s music can withstand widely divergent approaches, and LB Art may be a bit to over the top for some British tastes. Heart on sleeve has usually not been the preferred English brand of expression. It may be more of a Jewish characteristic, and I suspect that LB owed some of his Mahler sensibility to his tutelage under Bruno Walter

Actually, the law of diminishing returns has no place in the discussion of art, but more interestingly, the 'Jewish characteristic' you mention is something that people often think about in this, but seldom say it. For me, I don't buy it. If Lennie, why not other Jewish conductors? And I'm reminded of a point I made to Caliban a few years ago in a general discussion on Sibelius; much is often made of 'the ice-cool' nordic way of Scandinavian conductors and that it's in their blood etc, but at the time having gone through an intensive listening episode of Sibelius symphonies and several concerts, I found myself enjoying the Maazel, Ashkenazy and Bernstein's sets most of all. Three conductors who, as the theory goes, have no right to make excellent Sibelius music! Of course, this is just my personal view, ymmv.

[Barbirollians]

Well put, Barbs. Again, Jansons springs to mind when cite Conductors who want us to know it’s “their Mahler”.
LB always tried to identify with the Composer as much as possible. With Mahler, there was a considerable amount that they had in common, and I think LB can be forgiven if he identified a bit to closely.
We know that Mahler’s music can withstand widely divergent approaches, and LB Art may be a bit to over the top for some British tastes. Heart on sleeve has usually not been the preferred English brand of expression. It may be more of a Jewish characteristic, and I suspect that LB owed some of his Mahler sensibility to his tutelage under Bruno Walter

Also Bergonzi sadly not . I agree with you about Bruno Walter - his Mahler recordings are touchstones for me . The Columbia 1st , the NYPO 2nd with Maureen Forrester, the 1947 Fifth and the two Mahler Nines let alone the Ferrier/Patzak Das Lied and more recently the live Das Lied with Forrester and Lewis.

He seems to have declared the Sixth as too dark for him . Apparently , according to an appreciation in Gramophone I think ,after his death in 1962 a Mahler 3 was planned and a Bruckner 8 !

[teamsaint]

Well put, Barbs. Again, Jansons springs to mind when cite Conductors who want us to know it’s “their Mahler”.
LB always tried to identify with the Composer as much as possible. With Mahler, there was a considerable amount that they had in common, and I think LB can be forgiven if he identified a bit to closely.
We know that Mahler’s music can withstand widely divergent approaches, and LB Art may be a bit to over the top for some British tastes. Heart on sleeve has usually not been the preferred English brand of expression. It may be more of a Jewish characteristic, and I suspect that LB owed some of his Mahler sensibility to his tutelage under Bruno Walter

Among conductors,or more generally in the arts ?

[Bryn]

Just as BeefO forgot Lennie (and the remastering on that boxed set is, as he mentions, a thing of wonder), HighDoug reminds me that I forgot the Abravenal[sic], which, if not reaching the starry heights of my favourites, is a terrific performance of the work - for years the only one I could afford.

HD is also correct in singling out the Descant issue of the Horenstein: the recorded sound of this magnificent Live performance requires some tolerance - but reports on Amazon about the BBC Legends reissue suggests that the Beeb have made things worse (so emptor all caveats if the lower price for the used copy is tempting).

Abbado/Chicago ... I need to listen to this again: it never rocked my boat in all the times I played it, and was one of the few discs I didn't regret getting rid of. (Abbado conducted the only Live performance of the work I've ever attended - in the Barbican with the LSO in the early '80s. I was deeply unimpressed - although Caliban [who, unbeknown to me, was also at that concert] had exactly the opposite response.)

Re. the Abravanel, did that not have a timp. pitch error at the start of the 3rd movement (as highlighted in the Gramaphone review of its initial release in the U.K.)? I did eventually replace my LP version with a CD issue. Must check it out at some point.

[HighlandDougie]

AND Bruno Walter was in my opinion (and still is) the greatest Mahler interpreter. Sadly I do not think he recorded the 7th Symphony.

I'm not sure that Bruno Walter ever conducted the 7th symphony, at least in public performance. Like Klemperer, who didn't much care for the 1st, 3rd and 5th symphonies and who was never asked to conduct the 8th, Walter stuck to certain symphonies: 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and 9th. He was quoted as saying that the other symphonies were too difficult for the public of the time. And, if I may be forgiven the pedantry, Leonard Bernstein's formal tutelage was courtesy of Fritz Reiner, Serge Koussevitzky and, significantly with regard to Mahler, Dimitri Mitropoulous, rather than courtesy of Bruno Walter. LB did, of course, get his big break with the NYPO in 1943 when Walter was ill - and Walter gave him some tips on how to handle the orchestra. I don't have Nigel Simeone's LB's Letters to hand so I may be completely wrong but I don't recall from them that LB was much influenced by Walter in terms of musical interpretation.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And, if I may be forgiven the pedantry, Leonard Bernstein's formal tutelage was courtesy of Fritz Reiner, Serge Koussevitzky and, significantly with regard to Mahler, Dimitri Mitropoulous, rather than courtesy of Bruno Walter. LB did, of course, get his big break with the NYPO in 1943 when Walter was ill - and Walter gave him some tips on how to handle the orchestra. I don't have Nigel Simeone's LB's Letters to hand so I may be completely wrong but I don't recall from them that LB was much influenced by Walter in terms of musical interpretation.

This is how I understood it, too, HighDoug - and comparing Bernstein's recordings of those Mahler works that Walter did record, I don't detect any particular sign of the older man's tutelage.