BaL 10.02.18 - Boulez: Le marteau sans maître

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  • ardcarp
    Late member
    • Nov 2010
    • 11102

    #46
    I have no idea if this was a good BaL or not but I found Tom McKinney an excellent guide for a/this listener who is completely ignorant about the music of this sort. Fascinating music.
    He was indeed fantastic...also for those who knew a little bit [very little in my case] about Le Marteau. Andrew's contributions didn't seem to get in the way so much today. I can think of various reasons why, but that isn't important.

    I think I'm about to get boring of the subject of this BAL so skip this post now if your eyes (ears?) have already glazed over.

    1. I think my instincts about Robert Craft (post #16) were shared by Tom. At one point he even said that his precision was better than Pierre's. Such a pity that 1958 recording technology makes Crafts version a poor relation in terms of sound. As Tom mentioned, the balance of instruments varied from movement to movement. In one, the cello and viola were to the fore, whilst in others they were in the background. Strange also to hear a 'dated' style of [excellent] viola playing in an avant garde piece! The Craft was still strongly recommended as a 'period' choice.

    2. Tom was the perfect (maybe the only?) choice for a reviewer of Le Marteau. The fact he'd performed it..the guitar part...and his comments about how to aim at but possibly not quite achieve perfection gave him a rare insight into this difficult piece, for instance the 'killer' viola part!

    3. He also gave rare insight into Pierre's compositional process and Pierre the man. He was indeed in some sense 'an angry young man' whose driving force was probably disdain for everything that had gone before and everything going on around him including everyone's else's serialism...with the possible exception of Webern's.

    4. Tom went beyond the 'serial' aspects of this work, more or less saying tha Boulez rejected the purely procedural. Whilst the soundworld of the 50s avant garde almost inevitably has universal hallmarks (e.g. a huge emphasis on tuned percussion, the flutter-tongued flute about which Tom also commented and the tam-tam) the soundworld of Le Marteau is unmistakably Boulez.

    5. Tom's analysis of Pierre's various receded performances was brilliant. How odd that such a dogmatic personality could allow himself such a range of tempo and silences in his 'top brand' piece? Again, Robert's craft better than Pierre's?

    6. Now a personal note. Mrs A. and I were enjoying our Saturday morning lie-in, she absorbed in yesterday's Guardian crossword, I in BAL. The words, "Oh God I can't concentrate with that noise" caused me to grab the iphone, fire up Listen Live and plug in the headphones. There was a short period when movement 2 was playing out loud on both FM radio and iphone...but of course several seconds adrift. The effect was WONDERFUL!!!

    7. Listening to a work like Le Marteau on headphones gives terrific clarity. I know nothing about the technical side of BAL on BBC i-player, but if anyone's going to listen again, I do recommend headphones.

    8. Going back to item 3 above and the subject of serialism, it was a sort of challenge we, as naughty music students, set ourselves to write a note -row and a short piece based on it that was full of lovely thirds and sixths, pleasant melodic intervals and lush harmonies. It's not that easy. But my point is that serialists had their personal harmonic language that went beyond plonking down 12 chromatic notes in any old order. It was pointed out (by someone, somewhere) that Stravinsky's later serial pieces still sounded like...Stravinsky. Same applies to Boulez?

    9. One can only boggle at the various vocalists' skill. OK Yvonne Minton seemed to come out tops, but even the one who had a slight thumbs down early on seemed pretty darn good to me.

    10. OK. I've finished.

    Comment

    • Beef Oven!
      Ex-member
      • Sep 2013
      • 18147

      #47
      I really enjoyed reading your excellent post, ardcarp


      Although as an Englishman, I started to get a bit uncomfortable with the bit about you & mrs a in bed, but was relieved that it was about crosswords and BaLs.

      Comment

      • Stanfordian
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 9329

        #48
        Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
        He was indeed fantastic...also for those who knew a little bit [very little in my case] about Le Marteau. Andrew's contributions didn't seem to get in the way so much today. I can think of various reasons why, but that isn't important.

        I think I'm about to get boring of the subject of this BAL so skip this post now if your eyes (ears?) have already glazed over.

        1. I think my instincts about Robert Craft (post #16) were shared by Tom. At one point he even said that his precision was better than Pierre's. Such a pity that 1958 recording technology makes Crafts version a poor relation in terms of sound. As Tom mentioned, the balance of instruments varied from movement to movement. In one, the cello and viola were to the fore, whilst in others they were in the background. Strange also to hear a 'dated' style of [excellent] viola playing in an avant garde piece! The Craft was still strongly recommended as a 'period' choice.

        2. Tom was the perfect (maybe the only?) choice for a reviewer of Le Marteau. The fact he'd performed it..the guitar part...and his comments about how to aim at but possibly not quite achieve perfection gave him a rare insight into this difficult piece, for instance the 'killer' viola part!

        3. He also gave rare insight into Pierre's compositional process and Pierre the man. He was indeed in some sense 'an angry young man' whose driving force was probably disdain for everything that had gone before and everything going on around him including everyone's else's serialism...with the possible exception of Webern's.

        4. Tom went beyond the 'serial' aspects of this work, more or less saying tha Boulez rejected the purely procedural. Whilst the soundworld of the 50s avant garde almost inevitably has universal hallmarks (e.g. a huge emphasis on tuned percussion, the flutter-tongued flute about which Tom also commented and the tam-tam) the soundworld of Le Marteau is unmistakably Boulez.

        5. Tom's analysis of Pierre's various receded performances was brilliant. How odd that such a dogmatic personality could allow himself such a range of tempo and silences in his 'top brand' piece? Again, Robert's craft better than Pierre's?

        6. Now a personal note. Mrs A. and I were enjoying our Saturday morning lie-in, she absorbed in yesterday's Guardian crossword, I in BAL. The words, "Oh God I can't concentrate with that noise" caused me to grab the iphone, fire up Listen Live and plug in the headphones. There was a short period when movement 2 was playing out loud on both FM radio and iphone...but of course several seconds adrift. The effect was WONDERFUL!!!

        7. Listening to a work like Le Marteau on headphones gives terrific clarity. I know nothing about the technical side of BAL on BBC i-player, but if anyone's going to listen again, I do recommend headphones.

        8. Going back to item 3 above and the subject of serialism, it was a sort of challenge we, as naughty music students, set ourselves to write a note -row and a short piece based on it that was full of lovely thirds and sixths, pleasant melodic intervals and lush harmonies. It's not that easy. But my point is that serialists had their personal harmonic language that went beyond plonking down 12 chromatic notes in any old order. It was pointed out (by someone, somewhere) that Stravinsky's later serial pieces still sounded like...Stravinsky. Same applies to Boulez?

        9. One can only boggle at the various vocalists' skill. OK Yvonne Minton seemed to come out tops, but even the one who had a slight thumbs down early on seemed pretty darn good to me.

        10. OK. I've finished.
        The Guardian! Is that still going?

        Comment

        • Bryn
          Banned
          • Mar 2007
          • 24688

          #49
          Originally posted by Stanfordian View Post
          The Guardian! Is that still going?
          As a tabloid, indeed. I get my free copy each shopping visit to Waitrose. Except on Thursday last they had run out, so I had to revert to the Telegraph, which is no patch on its Clare Hollingworth days.

          Comment

          • mikealdren
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 1206

            #50
            Without disparaging Boulez' work, why did this justify over an hour with so few recordings and last week we didn't have time to sample Kempff et al in one of Beethoven's greatest masterpieces? The reviewer was good but I did get frustrated with AMcG's where are we now type prompts, lot's of time wasted as opposed to a waste of time!

            Comment

            • ardcarp
              Late member
              • Nov 2010
              • 11102

              #51
              but I did get frustrated with AMcG's where are we now type prompts, lot's of time wasted
              I think that's a widely held (but not unanimous) view on the Forum. It wasn't too bad today. BAL does vary in the length and popularity of the work/s being reviewed. It was a bit of a luxury today to have the whole time devoted to a short-ish work with a small discography. When something like The Dream of Gerontius or The Goldberg Variations pop up, you wonder how the reviewer can possibly manage the task even without the twofer format.

              BTW, is the BAL bit of Record Review always the same length?

              Comment

              • Bella Kemp
                Full Member
                • Aug 2014
                • 481

                #52
                A fantastically enjoyable programme which did what it should do - make one go back to give the work another try with renewed enthusiasm.

                Comment

                • Eine Alpensinfonie
                  Host
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 20576

                  #53
                  So, for once, the twofer worked. Good!

                  But remember - a stopped clock tells the correct time twice a day.

                  Comment

                  • Nick Armstrong
                    Host
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 26575

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
                    Although as an Englishman, I started to get a bit uncomfortable with the bit about you & mrs a in bed, but was relieved that it was about crosswords and BaLs.
                    "...the isle is full of noises,
                    Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                    Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                    Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                    Comment

                    • Beef Oven!
                      Ex-member
                      • Sep 2013
                      • 18147

                      #55
                      Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                      So, for once, the twofer worked. Good!

                      But remember - a stopped clock tells the correct time twice a day.


                      Such a negative attitude. And why do you have to go on about it every time?

                      Other similarly presented BaLs have been very good indeed.

                      Comment

                      • Beef Oven!
                        Ex-member
                        • Sep 2013
                        • 18147

                        #56
                        Originally posted by Bella Kemp View Post
                        A fantastically enjoyable programme which did what it should do - make one go back to give the work another try with renewed enthusiasm.

                        Comment

                        • BBMmk2
                          Late Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 20908

                          #57
                          Didn't think very much of this programme today, just as I was in for the morning as well!
                          Don’t cry for me
                          I go where music was born

                          J S Bach 1685-1750

                          Comment

                          • Beef Oven!
                            Ex-member
                            • Sep 2013
                            • 18147

                            #58
                            Interesting that the recommended recording is only properly available as a download. I think that's what was aid at the end.

                            Comment

                            • ardcarp
                              Late member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 11102

                              #59
                              It did. There was a time when we all grumbled like hell when the recommended version was unavailable on CD. Do we now have to accept that a download is 'an available version' ?

                              Comment

                              • Bryn
                                Banned
                                • Mar 2007
                                • 24688

                                #60
                                Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                                It did. There was a time when we all grumbled like hell when the recommended version was unavailable on CD. Do we now have to accept that a download is 'an available version' ?
                                Yes. It goes with the programme's name change to Record Review. Us dinosaurs who still think in terms of vinyl or polycarbonate discs as the only real records cannot stop the wheels of history.

                                Comment

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