BaL 30.12.17 - Mozart: Symphony no. 38 in D, K.504 "Prague"

[kea]

I haven't heard of this. Can anyone with a Koechel catalogue elaborate?

Nothing in the Köchel catalogue—it's possible a minuet ended up in a contemporary D major work (the Hoffmeister Quartet K499 and Don Giovanni were written during this period as well) or simply remained as a sketch, but as far as I know, it's thought that Mozart planned the symphony from the start in three movements, possibly modelled on the three-movement symphonies of Josef Mysliveček who seems to be one of the Czech composers he most admired. K504a—a rejected version of the slow movement—does exist, and Mozart did spend a lot of time on the slow movement in general, evidently trying to make it weighty and significant enough to be the centre of gravity of the entire work, which I think is also a good reason to not have a minuet. (Or if he had written a minuet, to have put it second after the first movement instead of third, which he did not do in any of his symphonies but did do in the contemporary and very slow-movement-weighted quintets K515 and 516 as well as K499 above.) (Probably the Linz Symphony could have done without a minuet as well for the same reason, and imo the minuet Mozart did write for that symphony is not all that great and probably was dashed off in an hour or so >.> but it seems the Austrian public would have been disappointed if they didn't get one.)

[jayne lee wilson]

An excellent BaL very reminiscent of Interpretations on Record, covering an impressively wide range of performance styles for its brevity, illuminated with many examples, detailed insights and observations from Tom Service, whose delivery was - clear, expressive, his cadences emphatically following their meanings; I’m baffled why anyone would object to his utterances so much.

As for those excerpts: I took against the lush HvK and the rushed Schuricht; I found Kubelik too gentle and didn't warm much more to the Jacobs than when I heard it complete (on Qobuz HiFi) last week.
I thought Walter (possibly the first Prague I ever heard, off a Columbia LP) sounded intriguing - warm and involved bar-to-bar, more alive than Karajan or Bohm; Britten and Norrington 1 (LCP) better still - sharp and fresh, very much closer to the classical yet rampantly inventive spirit of the work.

The top recommendation of SWR/Norrington sounded fine, if not as impressive as I (a keen admirer of the partnership and collector of their recordings) expected; I didn’t feel I would gain much from it that I don’t already find in Bruggen or (in a different stylistic context) Maag in Italy. What a shame we didn't have a direct comparison between Norrington and Franz Bruggen; and I would love to know Tom’s current thoughts on Abbado with the Orchestra Mozart, who have a marvellous (and in my experience, uniquely compelling) blend of warmth, poise, definition and stunning contrapuntal transparency (and ALL the repeats!).

***
(I was rather piqued to hear Tom’s sharply observed comment about the FBO/René Jacobs: the unusual phrasing, unique to their recording, in the violins’ repeated figure in the introduction to the the 1st Movement, apparently drawn from Mozart’s MS…. I had noted this very thing myself a week ago, but forgotten to paste it, or post it, here. Damn. )

[jayne lee wilson]

Interesting variation in the BaL from Tom's recommendations 4 years ago....(at the end of the article - the wonderful OM/Abbado is there!).

https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/oct/01/symphony-guide-mozart-38-prague-tom-service

It's a shame if some are put off listening by others' descriptions of the presentation here, if only because they'll miss that unique, and very telling detail in the Jacobs' 1st movement intro, which makes those violins even more tremulously fearful than usual... (see above...)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It's a shame if some are put off listening by others' descriptions of the presentation here, if only because they'll miss that unique, and very telling detail in the Jacobs' 1st movement intro, which makes those violins even more tremulously fearful than usual... (see above...)

In a way, I agree. We often get annoyed by presenters who haven't done their homework, giving inaccurate information, but never having the grace to correct wrong information. TS does his research, and this deserves much credit. But not all his opinions are facts; supercilious reference to Karajan's interpretation damage him as much as HvK. I say this even though I share his opinion of Karajan's interpretation.

[jayne lee wilson]

In a way, I agree. We often get annoyed by presenters who haven't done their homework, giving inaccurate information, but never having the grace to correct wrong information. TS does his research, and this deserves much credit. But not all his opinions are facts; supercilious reference to Karajan's interpretation damage him as much as HvK. I say this even though I share his opinion of Karajan's interpretation.

I can't recall his exact comment about HvK.... it wasn't that bad, was it? And it is hard to put in "IMHO" or for me every time, especially on the radio...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I can't recall his exact comment about HvK.... it wasn't that bad, was it? And it is hard to put in "IMHO" or for me every time, especially on the radio...

It was pretty strong.

[Bryn]

It was pretty strong.

"A cosseting pillow of orchestra sonority" . . . "saying nothing at all". Böhm came in for a few sharp remarks too. All entirely fair comment it he light of the extract played, to my mind. Must check out the Jacobs, especially given his unique attention to markings in the original manuscript, rather than the printed score.

Oh, and during tomorrow night's TtN:

1:47 AM
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus [1756-1791]
Symphony No 38 in D major, K504, 'Prague'
Prague Chamber Orchestra (without conductor)

Yeh, but they did have their experience with good old Charlie to inform their work.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

TS also commented "I'm not entirely sure what this Karajan performance and its opening means; what it's saying" ... so not quite as "supercilious" as might first appear, especially in context of the rhetorical drama of the opening. I have a radar for anti-Karajan sneering, and this, I felt, was very low down on the scale.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Director: Mozart, do you have that new symphony for is yet? It's just that it's coming up to Christmas, and we're performing early in the new year.
Mozart: It's my finest symphony yet. In fact it's probably the finest symphony yet written, but I've been a bit pressed with other works.
Director: I understand. How far have you got with it?
Mozart: Nearly three movements so far. And I haven't even started the Menuetto.
Director: That's worrying. If the rest of the work is that good, it would be a pity to do a bodged job.
Mozart: Well, I have had another idea.
Director: Go on ...
Mozart: Years ago, I wrote shorter symphonies without a minuet. I could do the same again.
Director: Wouldn't that make it a bit short?
Mozart: Short? Not really. My early symphonies were much shorter. But I'll tell you what: I could fill out what I've got by doing what I did in those early symphonies. Just this once, I could add second half repeat to the first movement. I don't normally do this, but if we're pressed for time, it could be the answer. And I am rather proud of this movement.
Director: What about the planned minuet?
Mozart: Yes; that's a pity. It would have been the best one yet written, but I'll finish the movements I'm working on, with that extra repeat, and if there's time, I might yet manage to put that minuet on paper...

Starring Cornel Wilde and George Saunders, with score specially adapted by Alfred Newman.

Back to reality and a quick check on page 412 of your copy of Neal Zaslaw's Mozar's Symphonies: Context, Performance Practice, Reception shows that Mozart had finished this Symphony on 6th December, 1786 - a month before he went to Prague, with no need for hasty omissions and plenty of time to add anything he felt needed to be added. No discussion with any Director about lack of time - he brought a complete work with him. Moreover, for all the Symphony's "nickname", the Prague wasn't written in Prague, nor was it necessarily intended for a premiere in Prague, but may even have had a Viennese premiere in the Advent season of Subscription Concerts before he went to Prague.

I think that with Mozart, at this stage in his life, we can discard simplistic ideas of "why" there isn't a Minuet, and why this might "explain" the presence of repeats - the work is not another "Unfinished Symphony", but a complete, finished masterwork. Well, "complete" if the repeats are observed, that is.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Oh ... and just to my close-up, Mr De Mille; Mozart's letter from Prague to his Viennese friend, Gottfried von Jacquin written on 14th January describes an active social life both in private and in public, including visits to the opera to see (amongst other works) Paisiello's Le Gare Generose, about which he is deliciously bitchy! Plenty of time to write a Minuet had the work needed one.

[kea]

1786-7 was also the time period when Mozart wrote a lot of works that were very large in scale—eg the first movement of the string quintet K515 is even longer than the first movement of the "Prague", although lacking the second half repeat, and the first movement of K516 (with second half repeat) is only a little bit shorter. The Piano Concerto K503, written in conjunction with K504, has a 15 minute opening movement with no repeats, and K491 written earlier in 1786 is similar and in fact I think Mozart's longest concerto full stop. Obviously that creates the problem of how to write a minuet that can stand alongside music of such scale given its much smaller dimensions, a problem I think Mozart solved best of all in K516 but clearly not one he was always interested in solving.

[BBMmk2]

Did Orchestra Mozart/Abbado get a look in? If so what did TS say, please?

[Alison]

Did Orchestra Mozart/Abbado get a look in? If so what did TS say, please?

Not a mention.

[french frank]

"A cosseting pillow of orchestra sonority" . . . "saying nothing at all".

"… Nothing at all, possibly." Sceptical rather than supercilious? M doesn't seem to have mentioned the work at all in his letters.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

"… Nothing at all, possibly." Sceptical rather than supercilious? M doesn't seem to have mentioned the work at all in his letters.

The text can be interpreted in different ways, but the tone of voice was very clear.

I think the point is that TS never appears to recognise any viewpoint other than his own, in any broadcast. He has a broad knowledge base, but it often gets converted into arrogance.