BaL 30.12.17 - Mozart: Symphony no. 38 in D, K.504 "Prague"

[cloughie]

I was very disappointed with the Abbado recording slick and soulless .

Listen again Barbs!

[cloughie]

I wonder if the Krips/Concertgebouw recording will get a look-in during this BAL. They rarely do in this country.... but they are the Mozart symphony recordings I return to most often. Bought them all in France (where they are revered, in contrast it seems to over here).

Yes -very underrated and tends to get forgotten!

[cloughie]

#37 has a very good first twenty bars! Yes - 39 and 38 always jostle for first place in my affections; and as #39 is coupled with both the Pragues I've played today, I'll probably play the Pinnock and Abbado versions tomorrow - and may revise my opinion tomorrow. But for now - the miracles of the Prague are foremost in my mind and affections.

39 has that Joy and pzazz!

[Beef Oven!]

A good time to fess-up.

For years I've skipped the minuet in Mozart symphonies and quartets (and sometimes Haydn, too).

Part of the reason is that as a schoolboy and avid radio listener, I would listen to the radio for more than an hour before I went to school. In October 1974, The Wombles released 'Minuetto Allegretto'. In due course it drove me mad and furnished me, from then on, with a hatred of minuets. That song single was even worse than 'Remember You're A Womble'

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

39 has that Joy and pzazz!

- but so has #38; and with a Slow movement that ... ooooohhhhhhhhh! (The theme that ends the Expo and then begins the Devlt just melts the cold, dry heart of this grumpy old fart and makes me feel young, wide-eyed, and optimistic all over again. Dammit.)

I don't know the Kripps - something I should have rectified yonks ago: his recordings of Figaro and Don G enfeeble all superlatives.

[Bryn]

I wonder if the Krips/Concertgebouw recording will get a look-in during this BAL. They rarely do in this country.... but they are the Mozart symphony recordings I return to most often. Bought them all in France (where they are revered, in contrast it seems to over here).

Stimulated by the strong advocacy for the Krips set here, I have ordered it. Just had an email advising it will be delivered to a local Amazon locker on the 24th.

[gurnemanz]

I wonder if the Krips/Concertgebouw recording will get a look-in during this BAL. They rarely do in this country.... but they are the Mozart symphony recordings I return to most often. Bought them all in France (where they are revered, in contrast it seems to over here).

You've got me interested. I don't have too many Krips recordings but the ones I have are great:

Don Giovanni (1955) VPO
Brahms Piano Concertos with Rubinstein (1958)
Schubert 9th LSO (this was my only version on LP for many years - coupled on CD with Schumann 4th)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A good time to fess-up.
For years I've skipped the minuet in Mozart symphonies and quartets (and sometimes Haydn, too).
Part of the reason is that as a schoolboy and avid radio listener, I would listen to the radio for more than an hour before I went to school. In October 1974, The Wombles released 'Minuetto Allegretto'. In due course it drove me mad and furnished me, from then on, with a hatred of minuets. That song single was even worse than 'Remember You're A Womble'

- yes; I became an ardent litterbug for some months because of that record. The Minuets are the movements that give me most grief in many older recordings by the "big names". Hearing them in zippy-HIPpy performances was what turned me on to them.

(And, of all the Minuet Movements Mike Pratt could have chosen, he went for the most disruptive and subversive that there is!)

[Bryn]

Unless it actually is played on period instruments, like their recording of the Mozart Violin Concertos with Carmignola, their Pergolesi and their Bach....
The Qobuz (Allmusic) note to the release including symphonies 29 - 41 specifies " Orchestra Mozart....a newly founded period instrument orchestra" but I don't have the booklet to hand. Even in some of the booklets (e.g the Schumann 2) the instrumentarium isn't specified, and I read somewhere that Orchestra Mozart do change between old and new according to the project. Maybe someone who has the CDs could check if the note specifies anything...

Listening on Qobuz HiFi the sonority in the symphonies sounds close, though not identical to, that of the Violin Concertos - those do have a smaller orchestra more closely recorded, the symphonies a larger one, more distanced in the acoustic...
Which, on a quick sampling, is definitely HIPP-enough for me and sounds very good, if a touch dry - I might buy this one!

Their Brandenburgs are played on a mix of modern and historical/copies of historical instruments, though the approach to performance on those instruments does indeed have historically informed aspects.

Also, take a look at the instruments illustrated here.

[jayne lee wilson]

Their Brandenburgs are played on a mix of modern and historical/copies of historical instruments, though the approach to performance on those instruments does indeed have historically informed aspects.

Also, take a look at the instruments illustrated here.

Yes, I peered at some of those too. I guess the later and larger the work (e.g. Schumann 2 which lists quite a large ensemble) the likelier it is to be modern or a mix. My much-adored Heidelberger/Thomas Fey Haydn series does something similar, with modern strings/winds and period brass/timps, and very wonderful it sounds....

***
Anyway, a few reflections on Mackerras 2....
With a much closer, warmer sound and setting, the first movement of Mackerras’ Scottish Chamber Orchestra 38th is noticeably more relaxed, softer-grained than the Prague CO one, though still with hefty dynamics and brilliant, prominent brass (at times a little insecure, I thought); I found it hard to get involved, missing the earlier reading’s pace, freshness and attack, the sheer excitement of it - its more overtly HIPPs character (The SCO is quite a symphony-orchestral sounding chamber orchestra here, rather too much so for my taste). Not to mention that spacious, atmospheric Prague acoustic. It is noticeably slower at 17'43 to the earlier reading's 16'11; the later movements don't show such an obvious difference.
Mackerras doesn’t change much in the exposition repeat (not a carbon copy, though Mackerras draws more from the livelier Prague CO here), but there is a palpable cumulative gathering of power and tension in the 2ndhalf repeat - one of the principal pleasures of such a practice.

Whilst the sonorities of each recording are always very distinct, there isn’t too much difference interpretatively, between the respective adagios: both are lovely, drawn-out, full of calm and repose; the City Halls reading warmer and sweeter.

But the SCO finale surprises you by really taking off, a fast, abandoned, almost wild reading with terrific climactic power (and certainly no auto-piloted repeats!). The reprise of the development generates terrific intensity and this finale is in dramatic contrast to the somewhat laid-back account of the first movement, leaving the listener to reflect more holistically on Mackerras’ interpretative conception, second time around…
But if anything, this experience only underlined my preference for the Mackerras' Prague account of the Prague Symphony....

[waldo]

My fave? Pinnock. Although he's slow burning throughout, it is definitely smouldering! His unexcitable approach reaps dividends the more you listen.

Pinnock for me too - by some distance. That whole set is just unbeatable in every aspect - playing, interpretation, recording quality, overall sound. The first box set I would rescue from the inferno.

An odd thing, though: Mozart is by far my favourite composer, but I have almost no urge to "collect" here. I seem to light on recordings I love quite quickly, then lose interest in finding others. With all other composers, I keep piling up the recordings, but not here for some reason..........Pinnock is all I want for the symphonies, Uchida for the sonatas, and Perahia/ECO for the concertos. I listen to others, but without the usual cry of "I want!"

Adding to something said earlier (I can't remember who, sorry), I find the Abaddo symphonies a little too cool for my tastes, even a bit uninvolved......

[richardfinegold]

Marriner has been notably absent from this thread. At one point, before the HIPP movement really began to gather steam, he and the ASMF were thought to be the perfect Mozart Orchestra. I remember liking his Prague quite a bit.
I've listened to Hogwood twice today. It's not bad, but for some reason he just doesn't seem to generate much momentum in I or III. II is quite lovely. It's kind of funny how old times big band conductors like Krips or Klemperer or Walter despite slower tempos and anachronistic practices can generate more of a sense of energy than some HIPP forces.
Hogwood's Haydn is so fine, and I really enjoyed his Beethoven set (my favorite period cycle). I just think his Mozart seems to often to be just off the mark in comparison.

[Pianoman]

Funny you should mention Marriner - that's the one I have and yes, it still sounds excellent. In fact, though I have the later Mackerras and Tate, the Marriner takes some beating for a modern instrument version imo..

[cloughie]

Just remembered that I have four recordings of the Prague by Kubelik. All good but will they figure on the 30th?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Marriner has been notably absent from this thread. At one point, before the HIPP movement really began to gather steam, he and the ASMF were thought to be the perfect Mozart Orchestra. I remember liking his Prague quite a bit.

I gave it a good word in an earlier post. I still think Sir Neville and the ASMF is the perfect Mozart orchestra. Committed and musical throughout - always respectful and thoughtful, and never trying to prove a point. A very fine cycle, with an excellent Prague.