BaL 30.12.17 - Mozart: Symphony no. 38 in D, K.504 "Prague"

[silvestrione]

So many wonderful Pragues....!

(Lindsay Kemp's excellent essay (6/2005) didn't pick a winner - his final list included Maag, PCO/Mackerras, Klemperer 2 (Philharmonia '62), ECO/Britten, O18thC/Bruggen, RCOA/Harnoncourt, COE/Schneider and both of Karajan's (Philharmonia or Berlin Phil); with Walter (1936) as the best of the [I]Historicals....).

To what are you referring here, Jayne? The last BAL, or something else? I certainly also remember the Klemperer Philharmonia coming out a clear first choice (bought it at the time, in fact...)

[jayne lee wilson]

To what are you referring here, Jayne? The last BAL, or something else? I certainly also remember the Klemperer Philharmonia coming out a clear first choice (bought it at the time, in fact...)

You missed two lines of my #14....(weird, huh?...)
"... did very well in a Gramophone Collection survey a few years ago........(6/2005)"

It's an excellent piece by LK, of musical and historical depth and breadth...

[Rolmill]

Should be an interesting and (if TS is on form) informative BaL.

I have several recordings, including SCO/Mackerras, OM/Abbado, COE/Harnoncourt, Freiburg/Jacobs (my least favourite), but the ones I usually return to are Sinfonia Varsovia/Menuhin and (especially) English Sinfonia/Groves (a very satisfying blend of energy, elegance and weight - sadly not listed so presumably nla). I too am interested in finding a good HIPP recording, so will be listening to this one.

[cloughie]

To what are you referring here, Jayne? The last BAL, or something else? I certainly also remember the Klemperer Philharmonia coming out a clear first choice (bought it at the time, in fact...)

The Prague by Maag (LSO) is a long time favourite of mine, there are many other good ones, LCP Norrington iand ECO Tate up there with the best.

[silvestrione]

You missed two lines of my #14....(weird, huh?...)
"... did very well in a Gramophone Collection survey a few years ago........(6/2005)"

It's an excellent piece by LK, of musical and historical depth and breadth...

Oh so sorry, just careless of me...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I suppose this is my 2nd favourite Mozart Symphony (after no. 40). I have LPO/Beecham, RPO/Beecham, ASMF/Marriner, BPO/Bohm, VPO/Levine.

My favourite is the RPO/Beecham, which is, sadly, in mono only. For me, Beecham was the finest of all Mozart conductors, but he had one weakness (like Dorcas Lane): his minuets were rather ponderous. But the Prague Symphony has no minuet, so all is perfect.

Bohm is heavy in the finale and Levine does all the repeats, so I rarely listen to either.

[Petrushka]

Quite a number of 'Pragues' in my collection: Abbado, Böhm (x2), Karajan (x2), Solti, Bernstein, Britten, Krips, Mackerras (SCO), Schuricht, Klemperer, Kubelik (x2) and possibly a few more lurking about somewhere on the shelves.

I'm not too fussed over the question of repeats, but those who give the full clutch of them do add significantly to the grandeur and majesty of this wonderful symphony. However, that is not quite the full story because I strongly suspect that in his SCO recording Mackerras is actually having the same 'take' repeated. Abbado, on the other hand with the Orchestra Mozart, does seem to vary the repeated music, subtly but surely, making for a more satisfying listen.

One other thing I like is those, especially Böhm with the BPO, who give extra emphasis to the timpani in the introduction, pounding out the rhythm to splendid effect.

It's a great pity that the Prague is the only Mozart symphony on disc from Bernard Haitink. His sure-footed way with the Prague (as also evidenced at the 2017 Proms) makes it doubly puzzling. A shame that he didn't take on the 1970s Krips sessions with a vintage Concertgebouw, though Krips is still excellent.

My own library choice in this would be Abbado/Orchestra Mozart in a performance that ticks all the boxes as well as a few more I wasn't aware of, making it at once a truly great symphony by a master of the form.

[jayne lee wilson]

That's some accusation, Petrushka... Surely Mackerras wouldn't allow such a thing?
Where do you find that "repeated take" in the SCO/Mackerras? Can you provide timings or movement references please?

(Mackerras is not usually, in any case, a caressing or affectionate conductor, is he? Tends to shoot from the hip, very straight and brisk.... without as I recall much rubato or expressive variation in phrase or tempi.... I haven't heard them in a while but I recall feeling that a slight drawback of the Prague CO Mozart was that no-nonsense, businesslike tendency....the SCO reviews tended toward that impression as well..... so one wouldn't expect Mackerras' expositions to alter much in the repeat...)

[Petrushka]

That's some accusation, Petrushka... Surely Mackerras wouldn't allow such a thing?
Where do you find that "repeated take" in the SCO/Mackerras? Can you provide timings or movement references please?

(Mackerras is not usually, in any case, a caressing or affectionate conductor, is he? Tends to shoot from the hip, very straight and brisk.... without as I recall much rubato or expressive variation in phrase or tempi.... I haven't heard them in a while but I recall feeling that a slight drawback of the Prague CO Mozart was that no-nonsense, businesslike tendency....the SCO reviews tended toward that impression as well..... so one wouldn't expect Mackerras' expositions to alter much in the repeat...)

Hold on, Jayne! I'm not making any accusation of jiggery-pokery, far less dirty work at the crossroads, but it's just a feeling I have that the repeats are too literal with Mackerras, as if (rather than 'strongly suspect' perhaps) the same 'loop of tape' was used. Listening to Abbado (and I just have done) the repeated sections feel subtly different from each other. No evidence, no timings, just a feeling which might be completely wrong.

[pastoralguy]

I do sometimes wonder about whether or not repeats are simply 'created' in the studio. I first became aware of this in Previn's 'Swanlake' recording with the LSO. There's one section where the first Flute goes very flat at the end of a section and this slight imperfection is repeated. Now I doubt that the player would have allowed that to happen twice so I can only surmise that the taps was replayed to make the repeat happen.

[Beef Oven!]

Like many people on here, I've a few 38s. The ones I listen to most are Bohm BPO, Pinnock English Concert, René Jacobs Freiburg Baroque Orchestra and Karajan, of course.

Expositions should be repeated in the finale and ignored in the opening movement. It's question of balance. Something DSCH didn't quite grasp.

My fave? Pinnock. Although he's slow burning throughout, it is definitely smouldering! His unexcitable approach reaps dividends the more you listen.

[jayne lee wilson]

Hold on, Jayne! I'm not making any accusation of jiggery-pokery, far less dirty work at the crossroads, but it's just a feeling I have that the repeats are too literal with Mackerras, as if (rather than 'strongly suspect' perhaps) the same 'loop of tape' was used. Listening to Abbado (and I just have done) the repeated sections feel subtly different from each other. No evidence, no timings, just a feeling which might be completely wrong.

Well, there are rather a lot of them! Both halves of both outer movements repeated and a 10 or 11 minute adagio.......... it will take a pretty sharp listener to pick out subtle variation in all those notes ..

I just played the Prague CO/Mackerras account and all I could reliably observe was a greater excitability in each repeat, especially towards the movement conclusions as you'd expect... but I wasn't always sure, given the sheer length of it all. Listen again!
Still, a terrific, physically exhilarating recording in the Hall of Artists 1987, even better than I remembered.. wonderful playing. Wonderfully motoric, engine-room effect from the strings in the 1st moment development!

I'll try the (even longer - 17"+ for the 1st movement ) SCO version later on this week, I hope....

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I do sometimes wonder about whether or not repeats are simply 'created' in the studio. I first became aware of this in Previn's 'Swanlake' recording with the LSO. There's one section where the first Flute goes very flat at the end of a section and this slight imperfection is repeated. Now I doubt that the player would have allowed that to happen twice so I can only surmise that the taps was replayed to make the repeat happen.

You beat me to it. I was going to mention the very same recording.

[Bryn]

Re. Tom Service on the Prague Symphony.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Expositions should be repeated in the finale and ignored in the opening movement. It's question of balance. Something DSCH didn't quite grasp.

That's actually in interesting way of looking at it.

Although I'm no fan of exposition repeats, the practice of repeating the development/recapitulation is frankly ridiculous. I know others will disagree with this, but when you reach the last bar, it's no time for
deciding to go back and replay half the act again. It's structurally nonsensical.