BaL 30.12.17 - Mozart: Symphony no. 38 in D, K.504 "Prague"

[Bryn]

The text can be interpreted in different ways, but the tone of voice was very clear.

I think the point is that TS never appears to recognise any viewpoint other than his own, in any broadcast. He has a broad knowledge base, but it often gets converted into arrogance.

Agreed. His tone of voice suggested to me that the "possibly" was not relevant to the point he was making, i.e. that Karajan had not penetrated below the surface of this symphony for those recording sessions. A case of most of the notes, and in the right order, if not as many times as Mozart intended, but . . .

[french frank]

Agreed. His tone of voice suggested to me that the "possibly" was not relevant to the point he was making, i.e. that Karajan had not penetrated below the surface of this symphony for those recording sessions. A case of most of the notes, and in the right order, if not as many times as Mozart intended, but . . .

Okay. I could pursue that but … And it depends also what you expect from a BaL. In the end, it's surely only going to be the reviewer's point of view, preference even. Here he was speaking of the opening chords and few following notes. What he 'wanted' [sic] was the 'austere and awesome rhetorical force' which he felt the Fischer had in that opening but he found 'entirely absent' from the BPO/HvK. I could respond to that individual point.

[Bryn]

Just a couple of additional points from the programme notes for the 'winner'. The symphony was most probably not written specifically with Prague in mind. It seems more likely it was hoped to take it to London, a trip which did not come to fruition. The invitation to Prague came well into work on it. For the piano sections of the work, Norrington used but half of the double sized orchestra. This was the first time he had tried the technique apparently favoured by Handel and Haydn in such circumstances. In the notes Norrington suggests others might find this a worthwhile solution when deploying a largish orchestra. He used larger forces for the recorded performances of the last four symphonies since these were originally given under festival Sunday concerts.

[aeolium]

I wonder whether Mozart knew another marvellous D major symphony written in 1786, Haydn's no 86 from the Paris set of symphonies. This also has a slow introduction with initial tonal ambivalence in the first movement, similarities in the opening to the second movement (both in G major) and a witty, fast finale, though the Haydn work differs in including the conventional minuet and trio. Haydn's symphony (like the other Paris symphonies) possesses a grandeur and brilliance rarely achieved in any of his previous symphonies and perhaps stimulated Mozart to a more ambitious composition.

Of the older, big-band performances of the Prague symphony, I like Maag's recording with the LSO, with a visceral energy in the outer movements - the finale a genuine Presto. The slow movement though tends more towards Adagio than Andante in this performance. Also very good is Suitner with the Dresden Staatskapelle, especially in the first movement with clear hints of the world of Don Giovanni. My preferred modern performance is Mackerras with the SCO, which combines an unsettling edginess with fine detail in the wind playing. Abbado with the Orchestra Mozart, though beautifully played with immaculate balance, just lacks excitement for me, a fatal deficiency in this most dramatic of Mozart's symphonies.

[BBMmk2]

Not a mention.

Goodness! That's not much good then, not even a mention! (OM/Abbado)

[french frank]

My preferred modern performance is Mackerras with the SCO, which combines an unsettling edginess with fine detail in the wind playing.

I'm glad not to be alone in that. Yes, I find it 'unsettling' too, with all the sinister ambiance of Don Giovanni.

[silvestrione]

TS also commented "I'm not entirely sure what this Karajan performance and its opening means; what it's saying" ... so not quite as "supercilious" as might first appear, especially in context of the rhetorical drama of the opening. I have a radar for anti-Karajan sneering, and this, I felt, was very low down on the scale.

Yes, I too, these days, have a low tolerance for in-the-swim anti-Karajan prejudice, and this was not it. The 'Prague' just didn't seem to bring out the best in HvK: though Bernstein thought otherwise, so I keep trying!

[french frank]

Yes, I too, these days, have a low tolerance for in-the-swim anti-Karajan prejudice, and this was not it. The 'Prague' just didn't seem to bring out the best in HvK: though Bernstein thought otherwise, so I keep trying!

And herewith (and I understand entirely what TS was getting at here and feel much the same):

[jayne lee wilson]

Did Orchestra Mozart/Abbado get a look in? If so what did TS say, please?

No indeed not, but as I noted in #138 (these long threads...!) https://www.theguardian.com/music/to...ue-tom-service
(scroll down for shortlist..)

Hugely keen on the OM/Abbado here as I've said, even more so on revisits. Very individual energy/poise/warmth blend... I adore it, truly, very contrasted foil to the clear-spring-water austerity or objectivity of Bruggen.

***

Re. Bryn's comments in #153 above....

WHAT HAPPENED NEXT.....
Seeking more on Norrington’s Mozart ( a gap in my collection) I discovered that the SWR cycle of “Essential Symphonies” consists of 8 live lunchtime concerts (6 CDs) recorded across just two weeks. They were played by “small alternating orchestras drawn from the SWR Stuttgart…. with the exact orchestra size as used at the first performances”, ranging from 18 players in the early works to a “double orchestra” with 24 strings and 16 winds for the last 4!
As Bryn noted, in those last symphonies Norrington says that only half the band play the piano sections,then everyone comes in for the fortes. Again following 18thC precedent, they kept rehearsals to a minimum - one the previous evening, a morning run-through - then the lunchtime concert.

The resultant spontaneity is immediately obvious and very compelling -
Listening to 22, 28, 31 and 32 on Qobuz was something of a revelation for me - I quickly ordered the boxset (Which, released 2008/9, seems to have had few reviews - a handful on Arkivmusik (Fanfare), but searching the Gramophone database revealed nothing.... anyone?)....

Looking forward to a complete SWR/Norrington/Prague when it arrives....!

[Beef Oven!]

No indeed not, but as I noted in #138 (these long threads...!) https://www.theguardian.com/music/to...ue-tom-service
(scroll down for shortlist..)

Hugely keen on the OM/Abbado here as I've said, even more so on revisits. Very individual energy/poise/warmth blend... I adore it, truly, very contrasted foil to the clear-spring-water austerity or objectivity of Bruggen.

***

Re. Bryn's comments in #153 above....

WHAT HAPPENED NEXT.....
Seeking more on Norrington’s Mozart ( a gap in my collection) I discovered that the SWR cycle of “Essential Symphonies” consists of 8 live lunchtime concerts (6 CDs) recorded across just two weeks. They were played by “small alternating orchestras drawn from the SWR Stuttgart…. with the exact orchestra size as used at the first performances”, ranging from 18 players in the early works to a “double orchestra” with 24 strings and 16 winds for the last 4!
In those last symphonies Norrington says that only half the band play the piano sections,then everyone comes in for the fortes. Again following 18thC precedent, they kept rehearsals to a minimum - one the previous evening, a morning run-through - then the lunchtime concert.

The resultant spontaneity is immediately obvious and very compelling -
Listening to 22, 28, 31 and 32 on Qobuz was something of a revelation for me - I quickly ordered the boxset (Which, released 2008/9, seems to have had few reviews - a handful on Arkivmusik (Fanfare), but searching the Gramophone database revealed nothing.... anyone?)....

Looking forward to a complete SWR/Norrington/Prague when it arrives....!

I had the SWR/Norrington Mozart set in my Amazon basket about 18 months ago, at £14. I couldn't make my mind up for about 3 weeks, then it went up in price to about £70. You win some, you lose some!

Having been very impressed with what I heard on this BaL from Roger and the London Classical players, I've ordered 38, 39, 40 & 41 from this combo.

[jayne lee wilson]

I had the SWR/Norrington Mozart set in my Amazon basket about 18 months ago, at £14. I couldn't make my mind up for about 3 weeks, then it went up in price to about £70. You win some, you lose some!

Having been very impressed with what I heard on this BaL from Roger and the London Classical players, I've ordered 38, 39, 40 & 41 from this combo.

Oh, don't worry, I agonised about it for ages too, 48 hrs at least! - But now we have Qobuz . We live in a changed musical world...

[Beef Oven!]

Oh, don't worry, I agonised about it for ages too, 48 hrs at least! - But now we have Qobuz . We live in a changed musical world...

HaHa, wish I'd taken 72 hours!

Which box set did you buy from Qobuz? I don't see one.

[vinteuil]

.

... I picked up the six vols of the Norrington Stuttgart in ones and twos over the last months at reasonable prices from amazon - they seem to crop up pretty often.

This one with the Prague -

http://amzn.eu/1JURPFm

.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

And herewith (and I understand entirely what TS was getting at here and feel much the same):

Many thanks for the link, ff. I couldn't switch it off. Loved it to bits .

[french frank]

Many thanks for the link, ff. I couldn't switch it off. Loved it to bits .

Scoundrel!

The word 'cosseting' struck me as apt for the beginning. There was a softness about it. I prefer the sense of urgency, those razor sharp chattering SCO strings and, above all, the operatic drama of it. Pinnock too.