BaL 16.12.17 - Schubert: Piano Sonata no. 21 in B flat D960

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  • jayne lee wilson
    Banned
    • Jul 2011
    • 10711

    Forgive my reprise of this (I came late to the thread after enforced, prolonged absence) but....

    ….As for exposition repeats themselves, I often wonder why, given its ubiquity in the classical concerto, the “double exposition” with varied repeat never caught on in sonatas or symphonies. I heard Hans Keller making this point on R3 once, commenting on the Beethoven Op.59/1 and Brahms 4th Symphony where the music seems about to repeat but dives off into the development, that it was as if a potential evolution or possibility of sonata form within a symphonic context had been bypassed.
    And why do 20th Century Symphonists largely do without repeats? (Not to mention Bruckner, who, after following the sonata-rules in some juvenilia, never seems to have even remotely considered them… there are some fascinating, unanswered questions about this structural principle.)

    Similarly, why do so few performers make anything creative of that exposition repeat anyway?
    So they give us their faithful reading of the score in the exposition itself - OK, we get that… and then…. give us the same thing all over again - usually with scarcely any variation in their interpretative approach.
    Why not use this opportunity to offer some creative or critical insights, some novel slant or higher entertainment, via their performance into the music they’ve just played? Is that such an outrageous suggestion?

    ***
    Schubert’s Piano Music had a visionary, compelling character for me from early on. It often seemed as, or more, important than any other. I carried it everywhere in my head, a constant companion and accompaniment.
    But once I’d heard Richter in Schubert, nothing else would do. Early or late, sonatas or moments musicaux; Kempff intégrale, Brendel, Uchida, Lewis…. all stayed on the shelves, save for…. Michelangeli in the single d537 sonata he deigned to perform. (Reflecting again now, Sofronitsky might have a place somewhere in my pantheon too - now there's an obscure d960 worth close attention…).

    I was actually recording Richter live from the RFH when he played the d.894. I was stunned - devastated - by the first movement, nearly half an hour long. I’d heard nothing like it, but such was its length it overshot my SAX-90 by a few seconds of the finale (which stunned me again by ending softly!).
    Of course, the pain of that failure-to-record only made the experience the more intense. How could I bear to be without it? I kept the tape and listened to it, agonisingly, poignantly, incomplete….

    It was some 10 years later before I had a CD player, and Richter’s recordings of d.894 on Philips, and Brilliant Classics. (I thought BBC Legends carried that RFH recital, but I can’t find it now…)
    And I feel just the same about his various d960s (and perhaps even more so of his extraordinary Reliquie, or the 575, 664 and 784 sonatas - that sense of the visionary, the deeply withdrawn and serene, the sharp-pricking instant of cognition or recognition) if without the lighting-bolt sense of revelation that d894 had wrought - the first Schubert I ever heard Richter play.
    Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 13-12-17, 20:50.

    Comment

    • aeolium
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 3992

      Originally posted by silvestrione View Post
      Well, why don't they? It's a real question.
      I am just guessing here, but might it be something to do with specialist proficiency in playing period pianos? There seem to be relatively few of the pianists on EA's list who are equally proficient in performing on modern pianos and period instruments: it seems to be either/or (Schiff has certainly played on period instruments, having recorded on both Mozart's and Beethoven's, but there are not many who perform on both period and modern).

      Thinking about concert performances, performing on period pianos or fortepianos provides particular challenges: not just the availability of appropriate instruments for the repertoire to be performed, but the fact that the repertoire would have to be confined to a narrow span of years, given the frequent and rapid changes in technology in the classical and early romantic periods. So even performing a programme of early and late Beethoven sonatas would compromise the historical authenticity of the performance - the instrument would not be right for one or other sonata. Pianists often want to perform a concert programme with works from different periods; this is simply impracticable with period instruments. Although I have seen over the years many period instrument ensembles in concerts in a geographical range of 50 miles from where I live, in Gloucestershire, I have very rarely seen any performance on fortepianos/early pianos. So we are left with recordings, which are hardly ideal for people who would like to experience a live performance of piano music on period instruments.

      Comment

      • silvestrione
        Full Member
        • Jan 2011
        • 1722

        Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post

        Similarly, why do so few performers make anything creative of that exposition repeat anyway?
        So they give us their faithful reading of the score in the exposition itself - OK, we get that… and then…. give us the same thing all over again - usually with scarcely any variation in their interpretative approach.
        Why not use this opportunity to offer some creative or critical insights, some novel slant or higher entertainment, via their performance into the music they’ve just played? Is that such an outrageous suggestion?

        ***

        And I feel just the same about his various d960s (and perhaps even more so of his extraordinary Reliquie, or the 575, 664 and 784 sonatas - that sense of the visionary, the deeply withdrawn and serene, the sharp-pricking instant of cognition or recognition) if without the lighting-bolt sense of revelation that d894 had wrought - the first Schubert I ever heard Richter play.
        I do so agree here, except for the Richter d894 and D960, for the very reason that those repeats, identical music identically played, at that speed don't work for me.

        Comment

        • silvestrione
          Full Member
          • Jan 2011
          • 1722

          Another reason for Zimerman and Uchida tinkering with their own pianos, rather than playing on a period instrument, may be to do with projection and audibility in the large halls they play in. I was at the RFH the other week listening to Uchida in Schubert, up in the balcony, and the way her Steinway projected with no difficulty to that balcony, from forte to pianissimo, was remarkable. They are, after all, remarkable instruments, wonderful instruments.

          Comment

          • Eine Alpensinfonie
            Host
            • Nov 2010
            • 20573

            Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
            They're not doing very well then are they? - unless you're aware of a factory anywhere in the world making mass-produced fortepianos.
            No, but many recorder manufacturers produce instruments at modern and baroque pitch. The same goes for other woodwind instruments.

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            • Richard Barrett
              Guest
              • Jan 2016
              • 6259

              Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
              No, but many recorder manufacturers produce instruments at modern and baroque pitch. The same goes for other woodwind instruments.
              That has to be non-sequitur of the day.

              Comment

              • LeMartinPecheur
                Full Member
                • Apr 2007
                • 4717

                216 posts so far - PHEW!

                For late joiners, the plot so far...

                Some pianists/ listeners/ theorists (forumistas) prefer the D960 sonata's 1st movement with exposition, some without. A matter of taste, a value judgment.

                Some performers/ listeners/ theorists (forumistas) believe that the score is sacrosanct - any deliberate departure from the composer's written instructions is unforgivable. Others allow the performer a freer hand. Again a matter of taste, a value judgment.

                Some performers/ listeners/ theorists (forumistas) prefer performances on pianos of the composer's time. Others prefer modern instruments. Again a matter of taste, a value judgment.

                'De gustibus non est disputandum' said the Romans, 'There should be no arguing about tastes.' Not I suggest because such an argument is a breach of etiquette, but because it is futile - there is no demonstrably correct answer that wins the argument once and for all. We like what we like.

                End of..???
                I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!

                Comment

                • Eine Alpensinfonie
                  Host
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 20573

                  Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post
                  216 posts so far - PHEW!

                  For late joiners, the plot so far...

                  Some pianists/ listeners/ theorists (forumistas) prefer the D960 sonata's 1st movement with exposition, some without. A matter of taste, a value judgment.

                  Some performers/ listeners/ theorists (forumistas) believe that the score is sacrosanct - any deliberate departure from the composer's written instructions is unforgivable. Others allow the performer a freer hand. Again a matter of taste, a value judgment.

                  Some performers/ listeners/ theorists (forumistas) prefer performances on pianos of the composer's time. Others prefer modern instruments. Again a matter of taste, a value judgment.

                  'De gustibus non est disputandum' said the Romans, 'There should be no arguing about tastes.' Not I suggest because such an argument is a breach of etiquette, but because it is futile - there is no demonstrably correct answer that wins the argument once and for all. We like what we like.

                  End of..???
                  A good summary. But will it satisfy those who like a fight?

                  Comment

                  • Barbirollians
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 11752

                    Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post
                    216 posts so far - PHEW!

                    For late joiners, the plot so far...

                    Some pianists/ listeners/ theorists (forumistas) prefer the D960 sonata's 1st movement with exposition, some without. A matter of taste, a value judgment.

                    Some performers/ listeners/ theorists (forumistas) believe that the score is sacrosanct - any deliberate departure from the composer's written instructions is unforgivable. Others allow the performer a freer hand. Again a matter of taste, a value judgment.

                    Some performers/ listeners/ theorists (forumistas) prefer performances on pianos of the composer's time. Others prefer modern instruments. Again a matter of taste, a value judgment.

                    'De gustibus non est disputandum' said the Romans, 'There should be no arguing about tastes.' Not I suggest because such an argument is a breach of etiquette, but because it is futile - there is no demonstrably correct answer that wins the argument once and for all. We like what we like.

                    End of..???
                    Splendidly succinct LMP - and just about covers it all .

                    Comment

                    • Richard Barrett
                      Guest
                      • Jan 2016
                      • 6259

                      Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post
                      Some pianists/ listeners/ theorists (forumistas) prefer the D960 sonata's 1st movement with exposition, some without.
                      Some prefer it without the exposition AT ALL??? That's a new one.

                      Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post
                      Some performers/ listeners/ theorists (forumistas) believe that the score is sacrosanct - any deliberate departure from the composer's written instructions is unforgivable.
                      They may do, but no such people have posted in this thread.

                      Here is András Schiff interviewed by Alex Ross on the subject of the first-movement trill and the fortepiano (full article here https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...-trill-of-doom)

                      The trill—a gesture that formerly served a decorative function—becomes a sign of the uncanny. Various metaphors come to mind for this remarkable event: shadow, tremor, shudder, groan. Schiff, contemplating the sonata’s opening bars, thinks of the sea—in particular, the sea depicted in Schubert’s song “Am Meer.” There a spacious major-key theme gives way to an ominous tremolando, reflecting a contrast in the Heinrich Heine text: “The sea shimmered far and wide. . . . The fog rose, the water surged.” Schiff imagines a similar vista in the sonata. “I see a broad horizon, a calm ocean,” he told me. “It’s beautiful how often Schubert writes about the sea, even though he never saw it. Then the trill—a very distant murmuring, maybe of an approaching storm. Still very far, but approaching. It is not a pleasant noise, this murmuring. Maybe it is also the approach of death. And then silence. What other work is so full of silence? And then the original melody resumes. This is only speculation—I cannot say what it really means.” (...) Schiff gave a demonstration at the piano. First, he played the trill with the pedal, producing a low, grim blur. “Just a big rumble,” he said, shaking his head. “I don’t think that’s what Schubert meant. Also, you could never do that on the fortepiano.” Then he executed the trill in accordance with his current thinking. The component pitches were more perceptible, and the final F made a pinpoint sound, like a stone dropping into water. Schiff paged ahead and pointed to a reappearance of the trill at the end of the exposition, just before the repeat. “Here it’s marked fortissimo,” he explained. “It becomes something scary, demonic. The sonata goes always between the two poles. In this of all pieces, you must take the repeat, because if not, among other things, you will lose this incredible shock.”
                      Now that is what I call an eloquent account of why the repeat should to be there in this work - nothing to do with anything being "sacrosanct"! I wonder why this simple point doesn't seem to have got through to some people...

                      Comment

                      • Richard Barrett
                        Guest
                        • Jan 2016
                        • 6259

                        Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post
                        We like what we like.
                        Yes but not for no reason, and minds can change, at least mine can - I hadn't taken any notice of Schubert's last sonatas, and considered them distended and rambling (especially all that repetition!), until Staier's recording came out, at which point they leapt into the centre of my musical consciousness and have stayed there ever since.

                        Comment

                        • MickyD
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 4816

                          Oh dear, I have just seen on the R3 website that this BAL is going to be a twofer.

                          Comment

                          • Pulcinella
                            Host
                            • Feb 2014
                            • 11062

                            Originally posted by MickyD View Post
                            Oh dear, I have just seen on the R3 website that this BAL is going to be a twofer.
                            Micky: you could have guessed that from Alpie's original post......
                            DON joins Andrew to explore....

                            Comment

                            • Richard Barrett
                              Guest
                              • Jan 2016
                              • 6259

                              Originally posted by Pulcinella View Post
                              DON joins Andrew to explore....
                              Well, at least we've had this discussion! I put on the Staier recording of D960 this morning and my wife remarked as she went by "I really don't see the point of playing that piece on a fortepiano". I have contacted my lawyer.

                              Comment

                              • MickyD
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 4816

                                Originally posted by Pulcinella View Post
                                Micky: you could have guessed that from Alpie's original post......
                                DON joins Andrew to explore....

                                Sorry, I missed seeing that. It's bad enough that reviewers only get 45 minutes for each BAL, but to have that taken up with so much waffle is really not on.

                                Comment

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