BaL 16.12.17 - Schubert: Piano Sonata no. 21 in B flat D960

[Alison]

I always remember Stephen Plaistow saying that it was wrong to think of Schubert as a permanent lyricist.

I may have been guilty of that!

[silvestrione]

So, moving on from the (inexplicably contentious!) issue of the first movement, another thing that's struck me on listening to various performances of this piece is the feeling that, although I prefer to hear piano music of that time played on period instruments, this is especially the case in Schubert's piano music which is so dependent on timbre and texture as a foreground feature, possibly to a greater extent than any previous keyboard music. Having said this, I was listening yesterday to Jan Vermeulen's recording of D960 from his complete set of Schubert's piano music and finding it much too harsh and percussive, though maybe this can be put down to the way it was recorded, to some extent. I always return to Andreas Staier as the recording that (until now) most clearly embodies what's in this work as far as I'm concerned. No performance on a "modern" piano comes close; they all seem to a greater or lesser extent attempts to adapt Schubert's textures to a medium they weren't conceived for.

(PS this isn't "dogma", it's heartfelt individual response to the sound of the music, if anyone's wondering...)

Point taken about 'dogma' Richard. Have you heard Zimerman's performance on his self-adapted Steinway? I'd be interested to know what you thought of it.

[BBMmk2]

Point taken about 'dogma' Richard. Have you heard Zimerman's performance on his self-adapted Steinway? I'd be interested to know what you thought of it.

What's your opinion of his recording?

[silvestrione]

What's your opinion of his recording?

I've listened just once (this is Zimerman), was not sure I was entirely aware of what was different about the piano, but was completely bowled-over by the performance. The silences in the first movement speak volumes! ('Hairs on the back of the neck' stuff...sorry about these cliches, serving as short-hand). The artificial diminuendo he engineers by way of a pedal, in the opening bare octave of the finale, could possibly draw too much attention to itself on repeated hearing...

[Richard Barrett]

This puts the poor old amateur at a disadvantage, having to have (at least) two pianos...

... and a harpsichord for Bach of course! - but, regarding "unsuitable equipment", how many amateurs have a full-size grand piano? I was talking about my preference regarding concerts or recordings by people whose facility with the instrument enables them to express insights about the music that my own bashing-through isn't going to deliver to anyone, except myself. My playing of Schubert wouldn't benefit that much from having am early 19th century piano at my disposal! (although I wouldn't say no if someone offered me one)

I haven't heard Zimerman's recording & I'm always willing to give anything a try.

[gurnemanz]

Historical footnote: It seems that Brendel (mentioned passim - ad nauseam?) was the first BaL winner in LP days (I bought it - still there in the garage). The Archive shows that he ruled supreme until Uchida took over in 2005 via David Fanning's survey. I don't know the recording but posters on here have not been universally complimentary. (Message 85 "mannered"; Message 6 "somewhat disappointing", "Uchida sounds stiff and unnatural to boot"). Historic and Mid-Price Choice was Artur Schnabel. Budget-price Choice was Sviatoslav Richter 1972 (Regis label).

[BBMmk2]

I've listened just once (this is Zimerman), was not sure I was entirely aware of what was different about the piano, but was completely bowled-over by the performance. The silences in the first movement speak volumes! ('Hairs on the back of the neck' stuff...sorry about these cliches, serving as short-hand). The artificial diminuendo he engineers by way of a pedal, in the opening bare octave of the finale, could possibly draw too much attention to itself on repeated hearing...

Thank you Silevestrione. I have been trying to gain information about what artist's are the best ones to look out for in this work and other late piano sonatas.

[MickyD]

Peter Katin made two very convincing Schubert CDs on his own square piano - it seems to me to very successfully re-create the domestic sound world of the early ninenteenth century.

[Barbirollians]

I have been listening to Pires too - her crystal clear playing and lack of point making coupled with much lyricism and indeed tenderness must make it a strong contender .

[Keraulophone]

I have been listening to Pires too - her crystal clear playing and lack of point making coupled with much lyricism and indeed tenderness must make it a strong contender .

Somehow she combines these admirable qualities with an engaging Mediterranean temperament and directness that suggests a certain ‘honesty’ in her interpretation. The listener is drawn in to the music instead of to the performer (e.g. Brendel, et al) as if at that moment this is the only possible way it can go. This may defy logic, but it surely is the mark of a great recording.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

how many period pianos, of the right period for playing Schubert, are there out there? At least one forumite above has spoken of playing D960 at home.... This puts the poor old amateur at a disadvantage, having to have (at least) two pianos.... This approach does seem to create a bit of a gulf between the amateur and the professional, the amateur knowing that however well they play, it'll always be on unsuitable equipment....

I've long thought that the HIPP movement is a clever idea being pushed by the industry to sell more instruments. People were, in general, reasonably content before it came along, and rarely got upset about the "Wrong Kind of Piano" or "Repeats on the Line". As for metronomes, they were utterly despised by anyone trying to use one.

[vinteuil]

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... who would have thought it! Our Alpie a troll!!!


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[Eine Alpensinfonie]

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... who would have thought it! Our Alpie a troll!!!


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And the Wrong Type of Troll too.

[Richard Barrett]

I've long thought that the HIPP movement is a clever idea being pushed by the industry to sell more instruments.

They're not doing very well then are they? - unless you're aware of a factory anywhere in the world making mass-produced fortepianos.

[waldo]

Can the instrument really matter all that much? Honest question from someone who knows little about these things.

My thinking (until corrected by someone with more expertise here) is this: the fortepianos in Schubert's day were surely heterogeneous in the extreme. It was a period of technical and mechanical experimentation. Some had this mechanism, some had that. Some were this shape; some were that. And so on. Surely, if you tramped from house to house across Vienna, you'd find all manner of strange beasts in the parlours of the bourgeoisie, all with their own particular growl and snap.........Now, if this is true, then can it really be the case that Schubert had particular sounds in mind, or that he meant to exploit the tonal qualities of a given instrument? Wasn't he just writing for the piano in general and wouldn't he have expected (and hoped) that his music would be played on a variety of instruments? In other words, is there really such a thing as "the fortepiano" and is this truly distinct from the modern piano?

As a I said, these are only my untutored thoughts. Glad to be schooled.