BaL 16.12.17 - Schubert: Piano Sonata no. 21 in B flat D960

[Richard Barrett]

It also begs the question, of course, ‘Whose Schubert just sounds like Schubert?’

As with any notated music there is no "just like Schubert". But a performer's priority could either tend more towards trying to bring out what he/she perceives as being implicit in the score, or more towards using it as a vehicle for realising an artistic vision of his/her own (given that it's possible to distinguish between these possibilities, which sometimes it isn't of course), which might as in Brendel's case involve missing out music which doesn't accord to that vision, as well as ignoring any knowledge that might exist concerning historical performance practice.

[Nick Armstrong]

I must go back to Pires............

Been listening a lot lately to her performance of the Sonata in A, D664. Perfection.

[BBMmk2]

Been listening a lot lately to her performance of the Sonata in A, D664. Perfection.

Strongly recommended, then?

[Keraulophone]

Perfection.

How could an artist ever achieve it or a listener ever recognise it?

[Bryn]

How could an artist ever achieve it or a listener ever recognise it?

Since, etymologically, perfection relates to completeness, it should not be that difficult for artist or listener to recognise. That, of course, rules out Brendel, but not Pires, it would seem.

[richardfinegold]

How could an artist ever achieve it or a listener ever recognise it?

[richardfinegold]

You’re right in that it wasn’t recorded by EMI but released by them in the UK. I have it on LP in the EMI box of Melodiya recordings entitled ‘The Art of Richter’. Is it the 1961? It could be the same recording as that reissued by Olympia, though I’m not sure.

https://i.imgur.com/GPTu65V.jpg

The world of multiple Richter recordings is a murky one. There are many reissues of piratically taped concerts and it’s very difficult to judge from a disc contents which performances are used, especially on these reissue labels. Richter was also prone to play Works very differently from concert to concert

[Richard Barrett]

How could an artist ever achieve it or a listener ever recognise it?

I'm not sure but I have the impression Caliban was using what is generally known as a figure of speech.

[richardfinegold]

Yes, I'd go along with that. I'm not into repeats, especially with late Schubert - marvellous music, but interminable in the wrong hands and with too many repeats.

..........(possibly contradicting my last post.)

Um, yes, I do believe you are. If we are supposed to take every note that Schubert wrote as Gospel, unalterable, and consign to Hell poor Brendel and his fellow tamperers, then who can be allowed to ignore the Composers request for entire sections of music to be repeatedly?

[silvestrione]

As with any notated music there is no "just like Schubert". But a performer's priority could either tend more towards trying to bring out what he/she perceives as being implicit in the score, or more towards using it as a vehicle for realising an artistic vision of his/her own (given that it's possible to distinguish between these possibilities, which sometimes it isn't of course), which might as in Brendel's case involve missing out music which doesn't accord to that vision, as well as ignoring any knowledge that might exist concerning historical performance practice.

Definitely my last post on this subject! Brendel clearly IS trying to bring out what he perceives as being implicit in the score, as his argument in his book, supported by the performance, makes clear. He thinks the art-work itself knows better than Schubert ('Never trust the teller, trust the tale', as DHLawrence said!), or he is seeking an insight into the deepest part of Schubert's inspiration, which suggests to him that the real balance and structure of the work (the whole work, he argues, not just the first movement) does not need, is harmed by, the simply unnecessary exposition repeat.

One of the weaknesses of the Schubert sonatas is the element of repetition, that is just repetition, particularly in last movements, but also, as Brendel says, in expositions and recapitulations. So, we don't need it three times, the balance and structure don't, the impact is greater without.

(But I like the Zimerman performance, with the repeats!)

[waldo]

Um, yes, I do believe you are. If we are supposed to take every note that Schubert wrote as Gospel, unalterable, and consign to Hell poor Brendel and his fellow tamperers, then who can be allowed to ignore the Composers request for entire sections of music to be repeatedly?

Well, I think it is considerably more complex than that..........Missing out whole bars is quite a different matter to ignoring a repeat (or even playing fast and loose with dynamic markings). I think most of us would recognise that there was a fundamental distinction there, anyway........

But I will certainly concede that my position is problematic......

[waldo]

One of the weaknesses of the Schubert sonatas is the element of repetition, that is just repetition, particularly in last movements......

Absolutely. As much as I love Schubert, I like very very few of his final movements. Many of them are absolutely maddening.

[Nick Armstrong]

I'm not sure but I have the impression Caliban was using what is generally known as a figure of speech.

I am much obliged to Counsel for the Defence

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

('Never trust the artist, trust the tale', as DHLawrence said!))

"Never trust the teller, trust the tale", aktcherly.

[richardfinegold]

[QUOTE=waldo;651593]Well, I think it is considerably more complex than that..........Missing out whole bars is quite a different matter to ignoring a repeat (or even playing fast and loose with dynamic markings). I think most of us would recognise that there was a fundamental distinction there, anyway........

But I will certainly concede that my position is problematic......[/

It seems to me to be a nuanced explanation of why a performer is allowed to ignore the Composer on some occasions but can be criticized for doing so at other times.
I think that recreation Artists—Musicians—should be allowed some license. Otherwise we can just have a machine spit out a note perfect version of everything and why let anyone else bother? Composers were trying to communicate with listeners, not be quality control supervisors at factories. And then the listener can decide for the self if the performance is valid