BaL 16.12.17 - Schubert: Piano Sonata no. 21 in B flat D960

[silvestrione]

What frequently puzzles me when this comes up is that it's considered to be the end of the argument - de gustibus and so on, as if (a) there's no possibility of tracing where those preferences come from, they're just there and that's all there is to be said, and (b) once they're there they never change (and often (c) having a Latin tag attached to an assertion lends it some special authority!). But one's preferences always come from somewhere, and understanding this might be a way of opening one's mind to previously unconsidered possibilities, or at the very least to thinking through those preferences and trying to articulate them, which is what makes a discussion like the present one more than an "academic exercise" or (to use EA's term) a "fight".

[Steerpike]

Encouraged by this thread I've been looking for a lossless download or CD of Staier's D960. It's at crazy prices from most places, although at 'only' 47 Euros, used. from Amazon.fr. They seem to have reissued D958 and 959 but not D960.

I wondered if anyone with connections knows of the likelihood of reissue any time soon, or of a better source than the ones I've been able to find?

Apologies for lowering the tone of the discussion!

Steerpike

[Richard Tarleton]

What frequently puzzles me when this comes up is that it's considered to be the end of the argument - de gustibus and so on, as if (a) there's no possibility of tracing where those preferences come from, they're just there and that's all there is to be said, and (b) once they're there they never change (and often (c) having a Latin tag attached to an assertion lends it some special authority!). But one's preferences always come from somewhere, and understanding this might be a way of opening one's mind to previously unconsidered possibilities, or at the very least to thinking through those preferences and trying to articulate them, which is what makes a discussion like the present one more than an "academic exercise" or (to use EA's term) a "fight".

Yes - I've been wondering in my amateur way about this very thing. From a first exposure to HIPP in the late 60s (Wenzinger/Schola Cantorum Basiliensis doing Bach SJP, which blew me away) I've become an enthusiast for (most) types of HIPP performance - especially in early and baroque. Lute, vihuela - bring it on. Having been introduced to that repertoire by Bream, playing with his nails with a guitar technique, I've moved on. My shelves groan under recordings of gut strings (plucked or scraped), early keyboards, authentic choral music.... My preferences have managed the transition there. I'm not set in my ways. My one problem area is early 19thC pianos. I wish I could hear (and understand) what others hear. I just can't. I've made the transition with everything else. What is it about these early pianos that I just don't get? Schubert just sounds to me as if it's missing something. Early and baroque gain for being played on the right sort of instruments, I just seem to hit a brick wall with early Romantic repertoire.

[gurnemanz]

Encouraged by this thread I've been looking for a lossless download or CD of Staier's D960. It's at crazy prices from most places, although at 'only' 47 Euros, used. from Amazon.fr. They seem to have reissued D958 and 959 but not D960.

I wondered if anyone with connections knows of the likelihood of reissue any time soon, or of a better source than the ones I've been able to find?

Apologies for lowering the tone of the discussion!

Steerpike

I also became interested in Staier through this thread and also found the price offputting. The cheapest I found for the 3-disc set new was 42.99 Euro from jpc in Germany. This comes to about £41 postage paid. I'm inclined to hold off for now.

[vinteuil]

I also became interested in Staier through this thread and also found the price offputting. The cheapest I found for the 3-disc set new was 42.99 Euro from jpc in Germany. This comes to about £41 postage paid. I'm inclined to hold off for now.

... a bit cheaper on amazon -

http://amzn.eu/5TQeVbQ

.

[ ... actually some £10 a disc ain't too bad, considerin' ... ]

.

[Bryn]

... a bit cheaper on amazon -

http://amzn.eu/5TQeVbQ

.

[ ... actually some £10 a disc ain't too bad, considerin' ... ]

.

Marginally cheaper via https://www.ebay.com/itm/ANDREAS-STA...75.c100623.m-1 i.e about £30 including p&p.

Note that the third CD has not only D. 845 but the 3 pieces D. 946.

[doversoul1]

What frequently puzzles me when this comes up is that it's considered to be the end of the argument - de gustibus and so on, as if (a) there's no possibility of tracing where those preferences come from, they're just there and that's all there is to be said, and (b) once they're there they never change (and often (c) having a Latin tag attached to an assertion lends it some special authority!). But one's preferences always come from somewhere, and understanding this might be a way of opening one's mind to previously unconsidered possibilities, or at the very least to thinking through those preferences and trying to articulate them, which is what makes a discussion like the present one more than an "academic exercise" or (to use EA's term) a "fight".

Yes, that (tracing where those preferences come from) will be most interesting but in order to do that, should not our thoughts go beyond our emotive responses to various performances? In other words, personal preference can be a subject but I don’t think it can be the base of discussion. That, of course, does not mean we shouldn’t express our preferences. Far from it but it isn’t something we can insist on.

[Richard Barrett]

Note that the third CD has not only D. 845 but the 3 pieces D. 946.

Staier's performance of the D946 pieces is also superlative. His handling of subtle variation in the many repeats of no.2 is breathtaking.

[MickyD]

Well, without wishing to hasten your retirement, Richard, I for one would love to hear what you could do! In the meantime, I must check out that Bob James album, didn't know of it at all.

[MickyD]

I would guess that the Teldec Staier discs will one day be collected into a bargain box. I think I have all of them, as well as all those he did for DHM.

[LeMartinPecheur]

I was disappointed you ended your otherwise excellent, helpful summary in that way. Value judgements, as the term suggests, are judgements, not just preferences, and can be modified by hearing someone argue the case for a different judgement. Indeed, I'd go further, and say that there is something that (Eliot) called 'the common pursuit of true judgement', i.e. an aspiration to reach agreement on what is best (never quite achieved), without which the idea of a value judgement, of anything having value at all, makes no sense.

And yes, I think I have now been persuaded by the arguments on this thread, that Brendel is wrong and the exposition should be repeated.

Yes, I've no problem with exploration of an issue like whether to play the D960 exposition REPEAT (sorry about missing out that rather important word last night!). It's when the discussion becomes pretty clearly an argument - "I'm right, you're wrong, your position is totally indefensible because x, y, z" that I start getting bored and angry, which I find a very unpleasant combination

For the avoidance of doubt, I do intend to re-explore my D960 recordings, to form my own view on the subject. Sadly though there's probably no hope for me, as I learnt the work mainly from the old Brendel Philips recording on LP in the 70s But I still feel that this non-argument has been far too lengthy!

[Bryn]

Staier's performance of the D946 pieces is also superlative. His handling of subtle variation in the many repeats of no.2 is breathtaking.

Indeed:

[richardfinegold]

Well, at least we've had this discussion! I put on the Staier recording of D960 this morning and my wife remarked as she went by "I really don't see the point of playing that piece on a fortepiano". I have contacted my lawyer.

You seem to have married a sensible lass.

[Alison]

No messages for seven and a half hours.

Secretly hoping DON will spark off fresh controversies tomorrow

Think it's been a good thread meself, lots to learn from and, always a good test, lots of new listening plans.

In fact I'm suddenly reenthused for all the Schubert Sonatas , the sound of Schiff's Bosendorfer lending a certain domestic loveliness to Christmas preparations this year. ECM discs on order.

[waldo]

ECM discs on order.

I'm not much of a fortepiano fan, but I really took to this Schiff set. I suspect it will benefit from a good quality music system. It sounds great to me when I use headphones, but some of the subtle colouring seems to get lost on my main system (low end stuff, unfortunately).