BaL 16.12.17 - Schubert: Piano Sonata no. 21 in B flat D960

[Pulcinella]

Well, at least we've had this discussion! I put on the Staier recording of D960 this morning and my wife remarked as she went by "I really don't see the point of playing that piece on a fortepiano". I have contacted my lawyer.

Perhaps she'd prefer it played on one of her harps.

[Alison]

I do so agree here, except for the Richter d894 and D960, for the very reason that those repeats, identical music identically played, at that speed don't work for me.

Totally agree.

[BBMmk2]

I am just guessing here, but might it be something to do with specialist proficiency in playing period pianos? There seem to be relatively few of the pianists on EA's list who are equally proficient in performing on modern pianos and period instruments: it seems to be either/or (Schiff has certainly played on period instruments, having recorded on both Mozart's and Beethoven's, but there are not many who perform on both period and modern).

Thinking about concert performances, performing on period pianos or fortepianos provides particular challenges: not just the availability of appropriate instruments for the repertoire to be performed, but the fact that the repertoire would have to be confined to a narrow span of years, given the frequent and rapid changes in technology in the classical and early romantic periods. So even performing a programme of early and late Beethoven sonatas would compromise the historical authenticity of the performance - the instrument would not be right for one or other sonata. Pianists often want to perform a concert programme with works from different periods; this is simply impracticable with period instruments. Although I have seen over the years many period instrument ensembles in concerts in a geographical range of 50 miles from where I live, in Gloucestershire, I have very rarely seen any performance on fortepianos/early pianos. So we are left with recordings, which are hardly ideal for people who would like to experience a live performance of piano music on period instruments.

Welcome back JLW. As usual with your excellent posts.

With repeats, surely on the reprise, performers can embellish on the music just heard more?

[silvestrione]

We like what we like.

End of..???

I was disappointed you ended your otherwise excellent, helpful summary in that way. Value judgements, as the term suggests, are judgements, not just preferences, and can be modified by hearing someone argue the case for a different judgement. Indeed, I'd go further, and say that there is something that (Eliot) called 'the common pursuit of true judgement', i.e. an aspiration to reach agreement on what is best (never quite achieved), without which the idea of a value judgement, of anything having value at all, makes no sense.

And yes, I think I have now been persuaded by the arguments on this thread, that Brendel is wrong and the exposition should be repeated.

[Bryn]

Perhaps she'd prefer it played on one of her harps.

Such a shame that Wendy Carlos never switched on D. 960.

[Richard Barrett]

Such a shame that Wendy Carlos never switched on D. 960.

I'm trying to imagine how that might sound, and not getting very far... I think she should have done a lot more Scarlatti than the couple of pieces on Well-Tempered Synthesizer. Always with both halves repeated of course...

[doversoul1]

I was disappointed you ended your otherwise excellent, helpful summary in that way. Value judgements, as the term suggests, are judgements, not just preferences, and can be modified by hearing someone argue the case for a different judgement. Indeed, I'd go further, and say that there is something that (Eliot) called 'the common pursuit of true judgement', i.e. an aspiration to reach agreement on what is best (never quite achieved), without which the idea of a value judgement, of anything having value at all, makes no sense.

And yes, I think I have now been persuaded by the arguments on this thread, that Brendel is wrong and the exposition should be repeated.

This is my guess but what LeMartinPecheur meant by a value judgement may be a preference based on the person’s sense of value. From jayne lee wilson’s post, it sounds as if she finds new insight etc. from ‘what’ is played rather than ‘how’ it is played, whereas many people find something new every time they listen to a performance of even the same recording and with the same repeats. Surely this is not something to debate about although I guess it (the debate) can be an interesting academic exercise.

[Bryn]

I'm trying to imagine how that might sound, and not getting very far... I think she should have done a lot more Scarlatti than the couple of pieces on Well-Tempered Synthesizer. Always with both halves repeated of course...

If I had not sold on my VCS3, I might have had qo myself, starting with the second movement before tackling the first. The latter replete with differently voiced repeats. But there again

[MickyD]

I'm trying to imagine how that might sound, and not getting very far... I think she should have done a lot more Scarlatti than the couple of pieces on Well-Tempered Synthesizer. Always with both halves repeated of course...

What really sends my spirits soaring on that disc is the opening "Domine ad ajuvandum" from the Monteverdi Vespers. I loved it as a teenager and still do now.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It's funny how many Hippsters like the electronic versions, yet get extremely upset about the age of the pianoforte being used.

[Richard Barrett]

a preference based on the person’s sense of value

What frequently puzzles me when this comes up is that it's considered to be the end of the argument - de gustibus and so on, as if (a) there's no possibility of tracing where those preferences come from, they're just there and that's all there is to be said, and (b) once they're there they never change (and often (c) having a Latin tag attached to an assertion lends it some special authority!). But one's preferences always come from somewhere, and understanding this might be a way of opening one's mind to previously unconsidered possibilities, or at the very least to thinking through those preferences and trying to articulate them, which is what makes a discussion like the present one more than an "academic exercise" or (to use EA's term) a "fight".

[Richard Barrett]

It's funny how many Hippsters like the electronic versions, yet get extremely upset about the age of the pianoforte being used.

I knew you'd say that. The reason is that an arrangement for synthesizer, or orchestra, or whatever, is freely admitted to be such, while an arrangement for "modern" piano isn't.

[Richard Barrett]

What really sends my spirits soaring on that disc is the opening "Domine ad ajuvandum" from the Monteverdi Vespers. I loved it as a teenager and still do now.

It was always my favourite Carlos album - if only there had been more along those lines.

[MickyD]

It was always my favourite Carlos album - if only there had been more along those lines.

Indeed...it's intriguing to think what other composers might have been tackled. I guess some Telemann could have worked well and I suspect that Carlos would have had a lot of fun with some of the livelier Rameau dances.

[Richard Barrett]

Indeed...it's intriguing to think what other composers might have been tackled. I guess some Telemann could have worked well and I suspect that Carlos would have had a lot of fun with some of the livelier Rameau dances.

The jazz pianist Bob James made an album of Rameau on the synthesizer, though it's nowhere near as inventive as Carlos's would probably have been. As it happens I've been spending some time over the past week investigating a rather impressive piece of software called Reaktor, which (among many other things) enables the user to construct virtual versions of the kind of modular synthesizer used by Carlos. It would be interesting to try out some baroque realisations... the trouble is I know that once I got started I'd throw myself into it and everything else would get forgotten. Something for my, er, retirement.