BaL 2.12.17 - Bruckner: Motets

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A very lowbrow view probably, but please excuse me

Didn't strike me as such, LMP - very sensitive response, I thought.

Also, I see that there's a different, earlier version of Christus factus est from 1879-84, for 7vv, 2 violins and 3 trombones. Does it ever get out? Looks like it could be a sonic spectacular!

There's a third setting - Bruckner's first from 1844, the first "movement" (Gradual) of a Mass in F major/d minor: WAB 9 in the Bruckner catalogue. WAB 10 is the version you refer to (dated 1873 in two entries in WIKI), and WAB 11 is the more famous one.

Sadly, it seems that whilst there are recordings on youTube of WAB 9 and 11, WAB 10 isn't

[MickyD]

If it helps - you get all the pieces that are on the Hyperion disc but with four extra items on the Naxos.

Thanks...and how do you rate the Naxos disc, fhg?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thanks...and how do you rate the Naxos disc, fhg?

Very highly. I only have this disc and Jochum's so I cannot compare like-for-like with the Corydons, but they are very fine, intimate performances in good recorded sound. (JFA appreciated the Musicality of the performances, but then indicated that he wanted something that emoted more - or "responded more fervently to the texts", if you prefer. He spent more time discussing and illustrating the Corydons, but was also more aggressive in his dismissal of them. FWIW, from the extracts that I heard today, whilst there are three other discs I would be happy to acquire, none of them surpassed Jones and his choir IMO.)

[LeMartinPecheur]

If it helps - you get all the pieces that are on the Hyperion disc but with four extra items on the Naxos.

MickyD: the reason for the extra pieces from St Bride's could well be that they are generally, though not always, faster than the Corydons. (Hurrah, my cataloguing exercise this morning - see #40 - serves some useful purpose). But I don't mean they rush anything: something I meant to say in #40 was that these works seem to withstand a wide range of basic tempi very well.

[MickyD]

Very highly. I only have this disc and Jochum's so I cannot compare like-for-like with the Corydons, but they are very fine, intimate performances in good recorded sound. (JFA appreciated the Musicality of the performances, but then indicated that he wanted something that emoted more - or "responded more fervently to the texts", if you prefer. He spent more time discussing and illustrating the Corydons, but was also more aggressive in his dismissal of them. FWIW, from the extracts that I heard today, whilst there are three other discs I would be happy to acquire, none of them surpassed Jones and his choir IMO.)

That's very interesting, fhg, thank you for that. I have a feeling I will nab the Naxos disc very soon. Thanks also to LeMartinPecheur for your guidance, too, much appreciated.

[Keraulophone]

Os Justi has always been my all-time favourite. I did hear it said that the plainsong Allelujah at the end was never intended to be part of the motet, and was included by accident by the publusher. Is there any truth in this, or is it pure rubbish?

John Rutter explains at the back of his European Sacred Music (OUP) that the concluding Allelujah was mistakenly appended from another motet and should be omitted. It is “the start of the monophonic ‘Inveni David’ setting, not the conclusion of Os justi”. (p.369)

The cathedral choir used to include it but now that we don’t, I rather miss it!

[Bryn]

John Rutter explains at the back of his European Sacred Music (OUP) that the concluding Allelujah was mistakenly appended from another motet and should be omitted. It is “the start of the monophonic ‘Inveni David’ setting, not the conclusion of Os justi”. (p.369)

The cathedral choir used to include it but now that we don’t, I rather miss it!

I think I would have greater faith in Cornelis van Zwol than Rutter in this case.

See message #37

[Nick Armstrong]

I thought this one of the very best BALs I can recall - the odd infelicity (lucky old Felicity) aside: the 'steeped in bread' line raised an eyebrow, as did the idea that Polyphony were recorded at TCC, which sounded way off although I didn't know where it was in fact taped.

But otherwise, I found Freeman-Attwood's analysis articulate, completely absorbing and for me personally, a revelation. I learnt so much about the pieces and the texts, and the relationship with the symphonies. What a pleasure to listen to, quite apart from the music....

.... and yes, what music. I knew some of them but can't believe I've never listened properly to Os Justi or Virga Jesse! Possibly because I had the Jochum but just couldn't stand the sound of the choir, and have the Corydon recording but don't really warm to that either (and was interested to hear JF-A's reasons for relegating them which rang true to me) - as a result I've never really got to grips with these pieces.

That's been put right immediately. Astonishing works. The sound of the Polyphony performances was the most appealing to me - but some of the detail from Tenebrae was spot-on, even though on the radio I was listening to, they sounded surprisingly hard-edged at full volume. But I'll listen on better equipment.

I did find the Ealing Abbey performance beguiling too, and shall investigate further for a completely different approach.

Shame the accompanied motets couldn't be included - Ecce Sacerdos is one of my earliest musical memories, from playing one of the accompanying trombone parts in my early teens.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Shame the accompanied motets couldn't be included - Ecce Sacerdos is one of my earliest musical memories, from playing one of the accompanying trombone parts in my early teens.

Presumably the omission was a cliff-hanger for a sequel?

[Keraulophone]

I think I would have greater faith in Cornelis van Zwol than Rutter in this case.

See message #37

Thanks, I’ll need to look at this some more.

[I can’t believe it’s not...]

[BBMmk2]

Cali, I couldn't agree more. The single presentation of BaL is much better. The person has much greater freedom here, I think.

[underthecountertenor]

I thought this one of the very best BALs I can recall - the odd infelicity (lucky old Felicity) aside: the 'steeped in bread' line raised an eyebrow, as did the idea that Polyphony were recorded at TCC, which sounded way off although I didn't know where it was in fact taped.

But otherwise, I found Freeman-Attwood's analysis articulate, completely absorbing and for me personally, a revelation. I learnt so much about the pieces and the texts, and the relationship with the symphonies. What a pleasure to listen to, quite apart from the music....

.... and yes, what music. I knew some of them but can't believe I've never listened properly to Os Justi or Virga Jesse! Possibly because I had the Jochum but just couldn't stand the sound of the choir, and have the Corydon recording but don't really warm to that either (and was interested to hear JF-A's reasons for relegating them which rang true to me) - as a result I've never really got to grips with these pieces.

That's been put right immediately. Astonishing works. The sound of the Polyphony performances was the most appealing to me - but some of the detail from Tenebrae was spot-on, even though on the radio I was listening to, they sounded surprisingly hard-edged at full volume. But I'll listen on better equipment.

I did find the Ealing Abbey performance beguiling too, and shall investigate further for a completely different approach.

Shame the accompanied motets couldn't be included - Ecce Sacerdos is one of my earliest musical memories, from playing one of the accompanying trombone parts in my early teens.

I agree entirely. A truly educative hour (they gave him longer than usual didn’t they?), and I will listen to the motets with fresh ears now I know which symphonies he was writing at the time.
JF-A is obviously a very busy man, but he can broadcast as often as he likes as far as I’m concerned.

[MickyD]

I agree, Caliban - the Polyphony disc is absolutely superb and I was lucky enough for it to be the disc which first introduced me to the Bruckner motets. The singing is fabulous and that huge Ely Cathedral acoustic is divine. Such a shame that there are so few of the motets on the disc, they really should do some more!