BaL 2.12.17 - Bruckner: Motets

[ardcarp]

Hope the ones with trombones (e.g. Afferentur, Ecce Sacerdos, Inveni David) will be discussed! Very impressive in a big acoustic, especially Ecce Sacerdos.
Bruckner also wrote some 'Aequali' for trombones (including an alto trombone if my memory serves me correctly). I was persuaded to include those in a concert of the motets (as we had fully paid-up trombonists present) but they are, IMHO, frightfully dull!

[ardcarp]

Oh well. Trombones didn't really fit with 'unaccompanied motets'!
I really enjoyed JFA's survey, even if his language was a little flowery at times. (Can you be 'steeped in bread' ?) I'm glad he gave serious time to Ealing Abbey and St Mary's Edinburgh. Maybe another choir of that ilk might have been included. St John's CC? However, there is no doubt though that to 'live with' a recording, one needs the perfection of Tenebrae or Polyphony. I have a gut feeling (only that) that Jochum's Bavarian Radio Choir might have sounded more familiar to Anton. One cannot know. One thing missing from this review was any information about who or which choirs actually sang the motets in Bruckner's lifetime. Was it the Abbey of St Florian, and how was its choir constituted?

Os Justi has always been my all-time favourite. I did hear it said that the plainsong Allelujah at the end was never intended to be part of the motet, and was included by accident by the publusher. Is there any truth in this, or is it pure rubbish?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Hope the ones with trombones (e.g. Afferentur, Ecce Sacerdos, Inveni David) will be discussed!

No - it was made clear from the start that the unaccompanied works only would be featured.

Okay; I got a lot out of this BaL, (and shall indulge in the Tenebrae and Polyphony recordings if I see them at an absurdly cheap price) and he made many insightful points about the workings of the Music. But it was clear as soon as he gave his reasons for discarding the McBride/Jones disc that he and I have very different ideas of what what we want from Music. What he called "infelicities" ("of intonation, rhythm, and ensemble"!!! What's left??!!) in the recordings with boys I found utterly intolerable, and if/when I do add to my collection another recording of these works, it'll be the Corydons that I'll go for first.

But, isn't it lovely Music!

[ardcarp]

It is! And having done them many times, Virga Jesse is by far the hardest to sing well...those semitonal shifts and the rising chords on 'pacem' are so-and-sos to tune well. Didn't like the way Ealing Abbey slowed doen on the latter, though I admired their ''go for it' style elsewhere.

[BBMmk2]

Indeed, JFA's language and how he pronounced of some words were of dubious origin!

But aside that, yes a very informative BaL. I rather like the Choir Tenebrae under Nigel Short. I already have some of their recordings, namely the one with an excellent Howells rendition of Take him Earth for Cherishing. This Bruckner recording will sit rather nicely along side.

[Pianoman]

it'll be the Corydons that I'll go for first.

But, isn't it lovely Music![/QUOTE]

Yes, glorious music I must admit and perfect when sampled in nice bite-size chunks...

I've lived with the Corydon recording since it came out, and never really felt the need to add; though I understand some newer recordings might be better audio quality the Hyperion stands up very well.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have a gut feeling (only that) that Jochum's Bavarian Radio Choir might have sounded more familiar to Anton. One cannot know. One thing missing from this review was any information about who or which choirs actually sang the motets in Bruckner's lifetime. Was it the Abbey of St Florian, and how was its choir constituted?

Bruckner's earlier works certainly were written for the Choir of St Florian, of which he had been a member since the age of thirteen (IIRC, being accepted on the very day that his father died). It is a monastery with an all-male choir - and it isn't unreasonable to suppose that this sort of sound was what he had in mind when he imagined the works being performed. (I think the Te Deum was intended for the larger Vienna choir, but these smaller-scaled pieces were all written with St Florian's choir in mind.)

Os Justi has always been my all-time favourite. I did hear it said that the plainsong Allelujah at the end was never intended to be part of the motet, and was included by accident by the publusher. Is there any truth in this, or is it pure rubbish?

According to WIKI - it wasn't a publishing accident, but the result of the choirmaster looking at the score and saying "Is that it?" - so Bruckner stuck an extra verse and repeated the Allelujah onto the "finished" work. The publishing accident seems to be (again, so it is written in WIKI) omitting these additions - which were then catalogued as a separate work!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os_justi_(Bruckner)

[ardcarp]

Thanks ferney! However it happened, it seems Bruckner was never quite in control of his published [I]oeuvres[/].

[jonfan]

A classic BAL from JFA with great verbal descriptions of the essence of these superb pieces. Good to be reminded of the Corydon, which I bought originally on LP - a revelation as I’d never heard these pieces before. Great to hear in the glorious acoustic of St Albans, Holborn, and one of Ted Perry’s first winners on his new label. What a pioneering achievement for an amateur group and which today stands up well against the likes of Polyphony and Tenebrae. A good choice of winner in a tight contest between Polyphony and Tenebrae; I’ve got both, plus St Mary’s Edinburgh and Corydon, and enjoy them all as they illuminate different details, just waiting to be discovered and savoured by the listener. (Polyphony was recorded in Ely Cathedral Lady Chapel, and not Trinity Cambridge as JFA states.)

[LeMartinPecheur]

After this most interesting BaL I sat down to catalogue the 4 or 5 recordings I have of the most popular motets and was startled at the huge range in their timings. For example, the Saltarello Choir under Richard Bradshaw (CRD LP c1974) see off Christus factus est in 4'25 where Jochum takes 6'15; and this scale of variation is repeated in many other motets, though not necessarily with these same choirs at the extremes.

Yet our reviewer didn't seem to pick up on tempi much. I've sung most of his top-choice B motets so have a little inside knowledge, and did feel that in one motet that he featured from one of his top-pick choirs, Christus factus est IIRC, the tempo was too slow and tunes of the counterpoint were tending to separate out into mere chordal progressions. And one of the things that makes performing these works so wonderful is surely the sheer singability of B's tunes as such!

A very lowbrow view probably, but please excuse me

Also, I see that there's a different, earlier version of Christus factus est from 1879-84, for 7vv, 2 violins and 3 trombones. Does it ever get out? Looks like it could be a sonic spectacular! ( My first introduction to Bruckner was in my school choir singing bass in Ecce sacerdos and B's trombones still do it for me. (Though I have to agree with the earlier poster that the Aequali are a severe disappointment)

[DracoM]

<< Polyphony was recorded in Ely Cathedral Lady Chapel, and not Trinity Cambridge as JFA states.>>

Yes, I shouted aloud at that point. Acoustic in Trinity is nothing like that!! The Ely location is one of the very best.

[ardcarp]

Polyphony was recorded in Ely Cathedral Lady Chapel, and not Trinity Cambridge as JFA states.

Ah! I just knew that wasn't the acoustic of Trinity! TCC has nothing like the reverberation on the Poluyphony CD.

Oops. Sorry Draco. I see you beat me to it!

[MickyD]

The recording pf the Motets from the St. Bride's Church Choir, Fleet Street directed by Robert Jones is excellent too!

I've just listened to a few excerpts from that and I like the sound of it, and we also get pieces with organ and trombones. Thanks for the tip, Stanfordian. But I see that the Corydons also come with organ and trombones. Decisions, decisions!

[jonfan]

<< Polyphony was recorded in Ely Cathedral Lady Chapel, and not Trinity Cambridge as JFA states.>>

Yes, I shouted aloud at that point. Acoustic in Trinity is nothing like that!! The Ely location is one of the very best.

A bit of unusual inattention on JFA's part as there's a large picture of Ely Cathedral on the CD cover.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I've just listened to a few excerpts from that and I like the sound of it, and we also get pieces with organ and trombones. Thanks for the tip, Stanfordian. But I see that the Corydons also come with organ and trombones. Decisions, decisions!

If it helps - you get all the pieces that are on the Hyperion disc but with four extra items on the Naxos.