BaL 24.06.17 - Telemann: Water Music 'Hamburger Ebb' und Fluth'

[LeMartinPecheur]

Yeeerrrs - except that the same description fits Handel's homonymous work

fhg: oh no it doesn't!!! GFH manages sheer grandeur that's not anywhere near Telemann's reach.

I fear this must be our 'Pistols for two, coffee for one' moment: where do we meet? Name your weapon and your seconds (mine I trust will be Trevor Pinnock and Sir Hamilton Harty)

[Richard Barrett]

GFH manages sheer grandeur that's not anywhere near Telemann's reach.

Zefiro's CD splits Handel in half and puts Telemann in between, which for me makes for a fascinating listening experience, certainly not of grandeur being replaced by wallpaper in the middle. But I prefer the parts of Handel where he isn't going all out for pomp and circumstance.

[MickyD]

Yeeerrrs - except that the same description fits Handel's homonymous work, and I have three recordings of that. The "chosen" one - which doesn't seem to be readily available (certainly Amazon don't seem to have it - at least not on the "shelf" one would expect to find it) - seemed most enjoyable to go alongside the (not even mentioned) Pickett which vinty very kindly pointed out for me and which has given me much pleasure over the past four days. I will probably add the "Chamber" version to my collection, too - I found it much more convincing than did Mr Heighes.

EDIT: I'm sure MickyD would have agreed, but it was vinty who recommended the Pickett, not (as I originally wrote) he. My apologies to both, and further thanks to vinty.

This is the chosen version - still very much available:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Telemann-Concertos-Suites-treble-recorder/dp/B000E8N9U6/ref=sr_1_11?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1498331638&sr=1-11&keywords=Maurice+Steger

I would very much like to hear the Il Fondamento version, they have done some sterling work in the past. My real regret is that Nikolaus Harnoncourt never got round to recording this fine piece - I'm sure it would have been well worth hearing.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

This is the chosen version - still very much available

- Many thanks for that, Micky; it's now clear why I couldn't find it under the various headings I tried earlier (I actually did encounter it, but didn't think it would come under "Suites & Concertos for Recorder"! )

[MickyD]

You're welcome - I have to confess it took a bit of detective work on my part, too! Still not sure if it would be my final choice...I get too fond of first encounter recordings and still have Goebel in my affections. And I liked the refined sound of the King's Consort in that lovely St Jude's Hampstead acoustic.

At the end of the day, how lucky we are to live in an age with so many recordings to choose from.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I fear this must be our 'Pistols for two, coffee for one' moment:

- well, I'm buying a single ticket. (I'll use your "Return" )

I am at a disadvantage in having known the Handel for forty years, and the Telemann for merely four days, and I was intending to give credit to Telemann, rather than diss Handel (who, as I have mentioned many times over the years, is one of my favourite composers). Taking "grandeur" as meant to convey appreciation (it has more negative connotations for me), how far is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blqujvruwbo

... from Telemann's "reach" (and grasp) in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBZXI5Ui954

Or, in what way is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AdtbmXosLI

... more "wallpapery" than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXgTzD5uTvw

Or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDE2uymsfeE

more anaglypta than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFG5Q9o7usA

Or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJIip0H3aNc

more minding of its Bs & Qs than:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmPHLUq1J_Q

I wood chip away at your suggestion even further, but the examples flock to my aid so easily, I fear it might not be fair.

[DracoM]

What did I start?

I tend to feel that much baroque we hear was deliberately written as background to 'events' of one kind or another. Like exquisite wallpaper. hence the remark. Jobbing experts the lot, real pros, yes, but bet they'd be amazed and flattered that we take it as seriously as we do to have it in a micro-critical BAL? bet they'd like the Cd royalties too!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

What did I start?

An amusing disagreement. (My gun was loaded, but I shot into the air.)

I tend to feel that much baroque we hear was deliberately written as background to 'events' of one kind or another. Like exquisite wallpaper. hence the remark. Jobbing experts the lot, real pros, yes, but bet they'd be amazed and flattered that we take it as seriously as we do to have it in a micro-critical BAL? bet they'd like the Cd royalties too!

Indeed - but the exquisite craftsmanship of works such as the Water Music(s) the various Concerti Grossi, "Ouvertures", and "Tafelmusiken" exude such good spirits and vivacity that I feel that it does them a severe injustice that they're somehow "unworthy" to be enjoyed and, yes, taken as seriously as we do.

[doversoul1]

What did I start?

I tend to feel that much baroque we hear was deliberately written as background to 'events' of one kind or another.

Can not much the same thing be said about many of Mozart's works?

[Richard Barrett]

deliberately written as background to 'events' of one kind or another

That was often its function, yes, what the composer was paid to do. But I don't think composers or the people who performed their music thought of what they were doing in those terms. The music they wrote for the contemplation of "divine truths" in their church music was not so different in style from their "wallpaper", after all. Both Bach and Handel, as is well known, were quite happy to transfer materials from one to the other.

[jayne lee wilson]

Despite others' enthusiasm for the Zefiro recording it's definitely one that would drive me up the wall in the 'Hesi---Tation' excerpt greeted with such enthusiasm by Heighes. A relief therefore when he dropped it later, on the grounds that some of its tricks might not bear library-choice repetitions. My own patience wore out well before the first such!

Have to agree with DracoM about sophisticated musical wallpaper though. So my one recording, King's Consort, will be enough.

To my ears....Telemann wrote at least as many catchy singles and album tracks as Handel... and with, it sounds to me, greater rhythmic & instrumental invention & variety....
...and the days of "library choices" are over. Well-and-truly. The days of multiple choices - and interpretations, presentations..... of streaming, CDs, downloads etc etc. Are here.
Embrace them all, hug them and kiss them. If some of them are one-night-stands and you hate them over morning coffee (or they've already gone).... so what.

Telemann.... Enjoy!

[verismissimo]

Sophisticated wallpaper IMO ...

Roughly once a decade (over the past half century) I've come back to revisit Telemann, and have on each occasion netted out as Draco.

[DracoM]

"..........and have on each occasion netted out as Draco..."

Genuinely do not understand what that term 'netted out as ' means? Never heard it before.

[Bryn]

"..........and have on each occasion netted out as Draco..."

Genuinely do not understand what that term 'netted out as ' means? Never heard it before.

Not a tennis fan, eh? Or too taxing?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Roughly once a decade (over the past half century) I've come back to revisit Telemann, and have on each occasion netted out as Draco.

Me, too.

I had a similar experience with Martinu - then I heard Belohlavek's performances with the BBCSO, and the arpeggios fell from my eyes. Something similar is happening to me this week with Telemann.

(And, it seems, with Jo Kondo, too. Must be my increased maturity. Or the weather.)