BaL 17.06.2017 - Beethoven: Diabelli Variations

**Pulcinella** · 18-06-17, 08:48

Originally posted by Pulcinella View Post

One for the Musical Confessions thread, instead of this, perhaps: I have NO copy on my shelves, not even a BBC MM one (but that's because there isn't one with them on yet). Just not my period/interest. But I shall try to listen, to find out what I've been missing, and what the appeal is to those of you who clearly find lots to admire in this work.

Best laid plans and all that!
Weather too nice to be indoors listening, and I caught only the very last few moments, but even that was enough to dissuade me from listening again, I sadly admit.
One of the reasons I didn't become a professional pianist was not wanting to learn all the standard repertoire that simply had no appeal for me (interesting, perhaps, that Brendel had to learn the piece for his Vox recording?).
Another, perhaps more relevant, reason was not being good enough: only Grade 8 Associated Board.

**ferneyhoughgeliebte** · 18-06-17, 08:55

Originally posted by Pulcinella View Post

(interesting, perhaps, that Brendel had to learn the piece for his Vox recording?).

Well - he was only 30 at the time - around the same age that Frith and Bishop and/or Kovacevich recorded their first recordings: there are other works that professional pianists are more likely to add to their repertoire that early in their careers. The point, of course, is that once Alfie had learnt the work, there was no stopping the number of times he wanted to return to it!

**Pulcinella** · 18-06-17, 09:14

Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post

Well - he was only 30 at the time - around the same age that Frith and Bishop and/or Kovacevich recorded their first recordings: there are other works that professional pianists are more likely to add to their repertoire that early in their careers. The point, of course, is that once Alfie had learnt the work, there was no stopping the number of times he wanted to return to it!

Fair comment!

I remember beng surprised to read that Ashley Wass had not been aware of the RVW piano concerto before recording it for Naxos. I could understand not knowing a piece, but not knowing that a piece existed struck me as odd. But then he was young, too, and there are probably lots of pieces I still don't know about even at my ripe old age!

I'm sure that AB knew of the Diabelli; they may just have been lower in the priority list for him at that time, or he may deliberately have delayed learning them, just as other artists think the time is not yet right for them to have certain pieces in their repertoire or on recordings.

**Eine Alpensinfonie** · 18-06-17, 10:59

Originally posted by Pulcinella View Post

One of the reasons I didn't become a professional pianist ...
Another, perhaps more relevant, reason was not being good enough...

My reason too.

**Richard Tarleton** · 18-06-17, 11:01

Originally posted by silvestrione View Post

An odd first half of Bach and Liszt Hungarian Rhapsodies.

Brendel reflects on this very programme in an essay on concert programmes ('Music, Sense and Nonsense', p. 343)

- I went to some of Brendel's early 70's recitals in the RFH but not that one.

I've just re-read his essay on the Diabelli Variations in the same volume. Iain B's opening remarks on the 1st var. are very similar

. Also that while most of the variations were written in 1819, 10 were written 4 years later in 1822-3, after the last 3 sonatas and the Missa Solemnis, including no.1, the March....I'm sure others know this, I found it interesting.

**silvestrione** · 18-06-17, 11:28

Originally posted by Richard Tarleton View Post

Brendel reflects on this very programme in an essay on concert programmes ('Music, Sense and Nonsense', p. 343)

- I went to some of Brendel's early 70's recitals in the RFH but not that one.

I've just re-read his essay on the Diabelli Variations in the same volume. Iain B's opening remarks on the 1st var. are very similar

. Also that while most of the variations were written in 1819, 10 were written 4 years later in 1822-3, after the last 3 sonatas and the Missa Solemnis, including no.1, the March....I'm sure others know this, I found it interesting.

Yes, would be fascinating to see a full breakdown, of which are the later ones. You'd guess var. 20 (echoes of theme of 2nd movement of Op 111) and the sublime fughetta (suggestions of the Missa), but of course it could work the other way.

**richardfinegold** · 18-06-17, 11:29

Originally posted by Bryn View Post

I have the Isabella Wallich produced Rosen in both its LP and CD (Carton Classics) manifestations. Very much worth listening to, it is.

I first became acquainted with the work via the Vox Brendel recording, which left me undervaluing it. The Rosen recording was a revelation, and it competes on my shelves with Brendel's 80s redo

**silvestrione** · 18-06-17, 11:40

Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post

I first became acquainted with the work via the Vox Brendel recording, which left me undervaluing it

Me too. But the eye-opener (ear?) for me was Schnabel. Still my favourite, i think.

I'd like to hear the Yudina. I have and admire Igor Levit. I do have Schiff still, just(!), find him too mannered and interventionist. The extract from var. 20 that IB played a very good example. But it did make me start to listen again freshly, as introduced and commented on there. That's why for me it was an excellent BAL.

Why don't some of the other, current great artists do it? Zimerman? Arkadi Volodos? Aimard? Bavouzet you can be sure will get round to it.

**Richard Tarleton** · 18-06-17, 11:42

Originally posted by silvestrione View Post

Yes, would be fascinating to see a full breakdown, of which are the later ones. You'd guess var. 20 (echoes of theme of 2nd movement of Op 111) and the sublime fughetta (suggestions of the Missa), but of course it could work the other way.

Brendel tells us: 1&2, giving "a broad base to the 'group of ascent'...Var. 8 as a well-nigh Brahmsian intermezzo....15 and 16 as 'parodies' of the initial theme. Vars 23-6 extend...the scherzo group (vars 21-28), introducing into it the contrast of the fughetta...[so

there] and... Var 28 provides the final climax of agitation before we are plunged from extroversion into inner darkness....." (I hope I've got that about right). Apparently the key text is William Kinderman's monograph on the Diabelli.

(apologies silvestrione - I pressed "edit" just now instead of "reply"

)

**Nick Armstrong** · 18-06-17, 11:43

Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post

A most enjoyable BaL - as soon as I heard the wonderful "buzz" of the first extract that IB played from the Staier recording I knew that that would be an addition to my CD collection; and later when the fairground was introduced I fell deeply and irrevocably in love. I wasn't expecting it to "win" (I thought that he was building up to Brendel) but I'm delighted that it did.

I might go for the Download option...

The one I thought would 'win' was Levit, which from the extracts played is the one I'm going to investigate, opened my ears like no other... apart from the Staier. Both to be listened to, in an attempt to remedy my ignorance-based avoidance of this work

**Richard Tarleton** · 18-06-17, 13:30

Originally posted by Caliban View Post

The one I thought would 'win' was Levit, which from the extracts played is the one I'm going to investigate, opened my ears like no other... apart from the Staier. Both to be listened to, in an attempt to remedy my ignorance-based avoidance of this work

"....greatest of all piano works...." (guess who said that

)

I'm glad to have heard the Staier, but am not sure I'm fussed about hearing it again.

**vinteuil** · 18-06-17, 13:36

Originally posted by Richard Tarleton View Post

[I]

I'm glad to have heard the Staier, but am not sure I'm fussed about hearing it again.

.. o Richard - "not fussed about hearing it again"

I can only hope that ferney's wisdom prevails -

Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post

- yes: precisely why I'm reluctant to get rid of recordings I own; many's the time that one that's initially disappointed me reveals its secrets years later.

It really is a wonderful performance ( and I don't just say that as an HIPP buff... ) - give it time, and you may discover what it's all about...

**Bryn** · 18-06-17, 14:48

I am currently having another listen to William Kinderman's recorded lecture on Op. 120:

I have not got, or read, his book on the same work but am sorely tempted. Both the lecture and his recording of the work (it's a double CD set) are well worth hearing. Unfortunately the CDs appear to have more than tripled in price since I bought them 8 years ago.

There is also:

A posting of the lecture itself on YouTube has been removed for copyright reasons.

**vinteuil** · 18-06-17, 15:00

.

... I see that Wm Kinderman's recording is on helios - and I think available from some sellers -

http://amzn.eu/fdYSPcb

.

**Bryn** · 18-06-17, 15:11

Originally posted by vinteuil View Post

.

... I see that Wm Kinderman's recording is on helios - and I think available from some sellers -

http://amzn.eu/fdYSPcb

.

The performance, yes (and it's the same recording), but not the lecture.

BaL 17.06.2017 - Beethoven: Diabelli Variations

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