BaL 13.05.17 - Monteverdi: Orfeo

[vinteuil]

.... I'm not sure that I entirely share Ms Knighton and Mr Summerly's enthusiasm for the La Venexiana recording: the brass passages in the excerpt broadcast this morning sounded very lumpy and plodding: I removed the set from my "Wish List" as a result.

... but ain't the cornett playing on the venexiana just the bizniss???


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[verismissimo]

I found it puzzling that JS told us several times that the performers had to understand 'the norms' and then said 'but there aren't any'. Well, which is it?
Of course, all of Monteverdi's music has had to be rediscovered, even recreated, so the concept of there being 'norms' seems quite inappropriate to me. I think he must mean that a norm is what he thinks.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... but ain't the cornett playing on the venexiana just the bizniss???

Mebbe ... but the buts were definitely Saggy.

[doversoul1]

I found it puzzling that JS told us several times that the performers had to understand 'the norms' and then said 'but there aren't any'. Well, which is it?
Of course, all of Monteverdi's music has had to be rediscovered, even recreated, so the concept of there being 'norms' seems quite inappropriate to me. I think he must mean that a norm is what he thinks.

My understanding* (my guess to be precise) is something like: the basso continuo is crucial to this work, yet Monteverdi didn’t write the part in any details, therefore the performers (both then and now, I think) need to know how the part was expected to be played, yet because L’Orfeo was a completely new form of music, there was/is no norms to refer to when performing this work. That was why, I think JS emphasised the importance of experience.
*Experts, please correct.

vinteuil

...does anyone know if the Gabriel Garrido was considered?

No. there were only a few realistic contenders: Rinaldo Alessandrini; Emmanuelle Haim; JEG; René Jacobs; Jordi Savall, and slightly old: Nikolaus Harnoncourt and Emma Kirkby (London Baroque).

Taverner Consort & Players, Andrew Parrott and Les Arts Florissants, William Christie weren’t even mentioned.

Although I think this was a missed opportunity as a BaL, the talk was very interesting (I’ve just listened to it again).

[MickyD]

I'm not sure that I'll even bother to listen to it, having read from dovers that those other notable versions were excluded. What a waste.

[Serial_Apologist]

Can you explain that, EA? Was it because the story was new to them?

Maybe what EA chose for them was the best of Gluck?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I found it disappointing, as I have La Venexiana's recording of Poppea, I don't think they manage these works anything like as well as they do the madrigals.

I agree that their recordings of the Madrigals are very good - a total delight for me since I got the boxed set in February - "supplemented" (not the right word) by Concerto Italiano/Alessandrini. I think that vinty's reference to "English, four-square" comes closer to describing my reaction to an incomplete set of the Madrigals by an English ensemble, which I had for some years without ever warming to. The Italians were just "there" instantly - and demonstrated the (perhaps obvious/self-evident) truth of what Jeremy Summerly said about Monteverdi's knowing exactly the acoustical riches of voices singing in consort.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm not sure that I entirely share Ms Knighton and Mr Summerly's enthusiasm for the La Venexiana recording: the brass passages in the excerpt broadcast this morning sounded very lumpy and plodding: I removed the set from my "Wish List" as a result.

On the other other hand, I thought that the excerpt from Act One played as part of the CotW this afternoon was remarkably good, with the choral singing quite as fine as I've come to expect from their recordings of the Madrigals! Sheeesh! Decisions, decisions - should the set go back on the "Wish List"? Savall definitely gets priority, though.

[MickyD]

I've just spotted this bargain box of all the Gabriel Garrido/Monteverdi recordings, re-released by Accent. I've heard many extracts and Garrido's approach is very much to my liking - theatrical and the recordings have a nice resonance to them. I think I might be tempted...these recordings have gone very much unnoticed over the last few years.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Monteverdi-L-Orfeo-Ulisse-Poppea-Marienvesper/dp/B01N9CGIN1/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1494964000&sr=1-1&keywords=monteverdi+garrido

[vinteuil]

Savall definitely gets priority, though.

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... Jeremy Summerly seemed to be privileging the 'chamber' aspect of Orfeo (informed by our knowledge of its original performing conditions) and I assume this wd have influenced his eventual choice of Cavina / Venexiana.

Would I be right in thinking that Jordi Savall's approach is more 'theatrical', 'full-bodied', etc?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

.

... Jeremy Summerly seemed to be privileging the 'chamber' aspect of Orfeo (informed by our knowledge of its original performing conditions) and I assume this wd have influenced his eventual choice of Cavina / Venexiana.
Would I be right in thinking that Jordi Savall's approach is more 'theatrical', 'full-bodied', etc?

I'll say!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBsXbn0clbU

[Richard Tarleton]

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Would I be right in thinking that Jordi Savall's approach is more 'theatrical', 'full-bodied', etc?

Well, theatrical yes - but in a good way surely (ferney?) - we watched it last night on DVD and were enthralled. "Full-bodied" - I heard Jeremy Summerly's remarks about it being performed in a small room but thought Jordi Savall bridged the 4 century gap perfectly. This was a period instrument ensemble which nevertheless had to hold its own in the Liceu.....the band very much part of the show, in their black gowns, dressed and lit to look like a Carravaggio painting. The stagecraft - lovely choreography, Apollo's chariot looking straight from the 16th century. Beautifully played and gorgeously sung, Sara Mingardo indeed seeming overwhelmed by her reception at the end (a tad unfair on the excellent Orfeo I thought, but there we are).

I have previously only heard it (the only Monteverdi I've seen staged being C. di Poppaea courtesy of ENO/Baker/Leppard ) - I needed to see it to understand it, and no better way than this.

[doversoul1]

Well, theatrical yes - but in a good way surely (ferney?) - we watched it last night on DVD and were enthralled. "Full-bodied" - I heard Jeremy Summerly's remarks about it being performed in a small room but thought Jordi Savall bridged the 4 century gap perfectly. This was a period instrument ensemble which nevertheless had to hold its own in the Liceu.....the band very much part of the show, in their black gowns, dressed and lit to look like a Carravaggio painting. The stagecraft - lovely choreography, Apollo's chariot looking straight from the 16th century. Beautifully played and gorgeously sung, Sara Mingardo indeed seeming overwhelmed by her reception at the end (a tad unfair on the excellent Orfeo I thought, but there we are).

I have previously only heard it (the only Monteverdi I've seen staged being C. di Poppaea courtesy of ENO/Baker/Leppard ) - I needed to see it to understand it, and no better way than this.

I have often wondered how much theatrical the original performance of Orfeo was as a ‘story told in music’. I can’t remember who said it on which programme but apparently, the members of the audience at the first performance were given a printed copy of the libretto and told to read as the ‘drama’ unfolded or they would not understand what was it all about (or something to the effect). Does this not suggest that Orfeo was a drama but not intended to be visually theatrical?

I have watched several youtube videos but in the end, I've come to prefer listening to it with the libretto.

[Richard Barrett]

apparently, the members of the audience at the first performance were given a printed copy of the libretto and told to read as the ‘drama’ unfolded

One thing to remember is that there had only been a few years' tradition of sung drama at that time (still less an appreciation that those concerned were in at the creation of what would become a major musical/dramatic genre) so everything was very new, untried, "experimental" one might say. How "visually theatrical" the first performances were should be assessed in that context. I don't expect they looked very much like opera as we now know it.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

One thing to remember is that there had only been a few years' tradition of sung drama at that time (still less an appreciation that those concerned were in at the creation of what would become a major musical/dramatic genre) so everything was very new, untried, "experimental" one might say. How "visually theatrical" the first performances were should be assessed in that context. I don't expect they looked very much like opera as we now know it.

- I've always assumed that the libretto was handed out because many in the audience just weren't accustomed to following sung dialogue and/or dramatic arias and choruses. Given the restricted performance space of the original production, it was certainly "smaller scale" than Savall's opulent DVD (which I find rather splendid) - but I don't think that it necessarily means that there was no theatrical spectacle, particularly given the Duke of Mantua's enthusiasm for such entertainment.