BaL 18.03.17 - Messiaen: Quartet for the End of Time

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

This thread seems to have gone completely off-topic. It's supposed to be about the BaL, ergo the work in question, as opposed to the relative merits or otherwise of the style/history of the presentation. Tut, tut!

A good point, though the presentation is something the BBC might do well to reconsider.

[ardcarp]

Not just the top note, no. The Piano part consists of three-note chords throughout ( from letter D - the subito ppp moment - the bottom note is doubled an octave lower, making sort-of four-note chords) all of which have both > and - markings at various points (to begin with* 10, 7, 10, 4, 8 semiquavers, repeated, then it
changes). All three (/four) notes of the chord should be emphasized at these points ('though Messiaen states that these emphases should all be within the overall piano marking - it could be argued that Olly M "overdoes" them - but he might counter-argue that the simultaneous accent and tenuto markings suggests something a bit more than a gentle "urging" is required).



* = Edit: The actual frequency of semiquavers between accented chords is [A] 10, 7, 10, 4, 8 (repeated) [B]15, 15, 4, 5, 4, 5, 4, 4, 2, 2, 2, 4, 2, [C] 9, 5, 7, 17, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 10, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1, 2, 4, 7, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, [D] 13, 4, 4, 4, 8, 4, 8, 26, 4, 4, 4, 4 (then 8, rest, 6, rest, 4 - with no accents after the first 8.) And not a lot of people know that.

Thanks ferney. I've always wanted a score of this, so maybe I'll order one.

[Beresford]

It (Tashi) did sound bad to my ears, all that legato. Seemed terribly wrong to me. Instinctively, I mean.

I agree entirely. Maybe the issue is that Tashi's legato strings were more Viennese sounding than the winner's (Fernandez etc) French style "granitique" legato. But Serkin was wonderful.

I thought it a very good BAL - the reviewer illustrated every point she made, and you could hear enough to know if it mattered for you. And I was happy with the conclusion, not least because the Fernandez came in the Warner Box Set I bought originally for Yvonne Loriod's piano playing.

[Beef Oven!]

I agree entirely. Maybe the issue is that Tashi's legato strings were more Viennese sounding than the winner's (Fernandez etc) French style "granitique" legato. But Serkin was wonderful.

I thought it a very good BAL - the reviewer illustrated every point she made, and you could hear enough to know if it mattered for you. And I was happy with the conclusion, not least because the Fernandez came in the Warner Box Set I bought originally for Yvonne Loriod's piano playing.

I thought it was an excellent BaL. But I guess we may want different things from a BaL.

[BBMmk2]

I thought it was an excellent BaL. But I guess we may want different things from a BaL.

As far as the type of "chatty" BaLs go, this was by far the best so far.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I thought it was an excellent BaL. But I guess we may want different things from a BaL.

- I want the reviewer to know the score. Some evidence in this BaL that Ms Molleson simply didn't know it well enough to be competent to pass a respectable judgement.

[Bryn]

I thought it was an excellent BaL. But I guess we may want different things from a BaL.

So it does not worry you that she seriously misrepresented what Messiaen wrote in the score, and dismissed the performance which most closely followed that score? No, this was a very poor BaL indeed.

[Beef Oven!]

So it does not worry you that she seriously misrepresented what Messiaen wrote in the score, and dismissed the performance which most closely followed that score? No, this was a very poor BaL indeed.

Reput that as a question so I can answer it.

[Richard Barrett]

- I want the reviewer to know the score.

Surely this is the least anyone could ask for.

[Beef Oven!]

- I want the reviewer to know the score. Some evidence in this BaL that Ms Molleson simply didn't know it well enough to be competent to pass a respectable judgement.

I don’t know the score, but I trust what people are saying in here; but her observation of how the music goes in that recording is spot-on (whatever it says in the score).

[silvestrione]

I don’t know the score, but I trust what people are saying in here; but her observation of how the music goes in that recording is spot-on (whatever it says in the score).

I completely agree. There's an 'aha, caught you out!' feel to some of the comments here, when in fact, apart from the error mentioned, she gave every impression of knowing the work inside-out, loving it, loving certain performances ( with careful discrimination: hence the fact that she had different 'winners' for each movement), and had an infectious enthusiasm (when she said, 'Just listen to this!', I was really ready to!). Nor was she entirely dismissive of Mustonen, just puzzled, a little disappointed, still wondering why he did it or why it was recorded with that balance...My experience of Mustonen live leaves me unsurprised: he can be a rather brutal pianist (sorry, too harsh? brusque and overly forceful).

[Bryn]

Anyone interested in the background to this work is strongly recommended to acquaint themselves with Rebecca Rischin's book, "For the End of Time".

[Beef Oven!]

I completely agree. There's an 'aha, caught you out!' feel to some of the comments here, when in fact, apart from the error mentioned, she gave every impression of knowing the work inside-out, loving it, loving certain performances ( with careful discrimination: hence the fact that she had different 'winners' for each movement), and had an infectious enthusiasm (when she said, 'Just listen to this!', I was really ready to!). Nor was she entirely dismissive of Mustonen, just puzzled, a little disappointed, still wondering why he did it or why it was recorded with that balance...My experience of Mustonen live leaves me unsurprised: he can be a rather brutal pianist (sorry, too harsh? brusque and overly forceful).

She seemed to me to have, as you say, an inside-out knowledge of the work. She must have put quite some thought into how she was going to go about this BaL as each part set-up the next, seamlessly and it all came across ineffably right. Her leagatogate appears all the more strange.

Anyway, it certainly enthused me to go back to my CDs and play them a few times - the sign of a good BaL, IMV!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Anyone interested in the background to this work is strongly recommended to acquaint themselves with Rebecca Rischin's book, "For the End of Time".

https://www.amazon.co.uk/End-Time-Story-Messiaen-Quartet/dp/0801472970

Ross Pople's monogram in the "Cambridge Music Handbook" series is very good, too:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Messiaen-Quatuor-Temps-Cambridge-Handbooks/0521585384

... both written by people who actually do know the score inside-out, rather than merely giving "every impression" of doing so.

I'm not certain how Ms Molleson gave such impressions, seeing how she made few references to the score beyond the Messiaen's verbal introduction to it, and a few (occasionally careless) references to the dynamics and tempi - nor did the "infectious enthusiasm" extend to her snide comment on Robert Stoltzman ("he sounds as if he's been recorded in a different room - we might wish he had been") - but there you go; as BeefO said, different folks need different things from a BaL.

[Beef Oven!]

I'm not certain how Ms Molleson gave such impressions, seeing how she made few references to the score beyond the Messiaen's verbal introduction to it, and a few (occasionally careless) references to the dynamics and tempi - nor did the "infectious enthusiasm" extend to her snide comment on Robert Stoltzman ("he sounds as if he's been recorded in a different room - we might wish he had been") - but there you go; as BeefO said, different folks need different things from a BaL.

I think that if she hadn’t made the comments about the score, and found a different way to express why it doesn’t sound very good, we’d be none the wiser. Of course, this can’t be tested. I’m not excusing the error, it’s actually inexcusable!