BaL 25.02.17 - Ives: Symphony no. 2

[ardcarp]

...enjoyed the whole thing this morning on R3.

[richardfinegold]

It's nice to see the love poured out by Forumites. I've listened to this this week twice in honor of the BAL after about a 2 year hiatus from Ives. When I did latch on to Ives, perhaps 20 years ago, I sort of inhaled all his works at once. I have to say the Second ranks behind his last two Symphonies in my preference. It has all those old American tune references which might sound exotic to Europeans but on repeated play to modern American ears come off as kitschy. I much prefer the 4th, which I think is his greatest Symphony, or Central PRk in the Dark, or The Unanswered Question.

[Alison]

I was a little surprised at the ease with which distortions of the text were accepted.

And there was ES lining himself up for a future baL on the Fourth Symphony!

[Bryn]

And there was ES lining himself up for a future baL on the Fourth Symphony!

O.k., devil's advocate hat on. Though the composition dates for the 2nd are usually given as from 1897 to 1901, Ives was an inveterate tinkerer. The final 11 note chord, for instance, was a later touch. The Elkus Critical Edition sought to correct getting on for 1,000 manuscript errors. Hats off to him for that, but with Ives there can surely be no definitive version of a score. Just think of the recordings of Ives himself playing excerpts from, and extemporisations upon, his Concord Sonata. That said, Bernstein overstepped the mark in his meddling. Thankfully he did not record, or even conduct, the 4th, (IIRC).

[The Oehms Levine box has just been delivered. Might just have time to listen to the Ives 2nd from it before heading for work at 13:00.]

[Bryn]

This forum is getting so lively I'll never keep up!
But although I haven't heard Ives 2nd for some time I'd offer a word for the Munich PO/Levine one. ...

Hi jlw, do you have recording dates for the Ives? I can't seem to find any such reference in the booklet that came with the boxed set.

[One reason I ask is that this sounds very much as it he used the Critical Edition of the score, except that he even outdoes Bernstein in corrupting that final chord. That will be subject to a hefty edit before I listen again.]

[Nick Armstrong]

I love this symphony to bits as a result of the 1987 Bernstein version being one of my earliest CD purchases - I played the last movement over and over. So - call me a prole - the Pythonesque inflation of the final chord doesn't worry me. I've never investigated more widely than that version - so this BAL was welcome for me. I shall certainly be giving the Concertgebouw/MTT a listen on Qobuz, and also the Seattle/Morlot (I've loved his Dutilleux recordings).

That such a seasoned reviewer as ES should need Andrew to hold his hand beggars belief.

Actually it's the other way round - in an exchange I had with AMcG, he made clear that it's only the seasoned reviewers who can be 'trusted' (not his word) with a live BAL.... which is why the 'chat' format will remain the minority, because most reviewers need the safety net of a script and a pre-record.

I didn't think this discussion worked badly - as you say ardcarp, ES kept a firm hand on the tiller and brushed off a few AMcG interjections in order to get on with what he wanted to talk about.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

- in an exchange I had with AMcG, he made clear that it's only the seasoned reviewers who can be 'trusted' (not his word) with a live BAL.... which is why the 'chat' format will remain the minority, because most reviewers need the safety net of a script and a pre-record.

But Seckerson is so "seasoned" he has to have three chillies put beside his name - albeit needing AMcG's input on this occasion. If "new" reviewers need to accumulate confidence, then get rid of "Live BaLs", and record them (editing out as they do all the "err-umm scarums" that are such a prized feature of Live broadcasts).

[gurnemanz]

O.k., devil's advocate hat on.

[HighlandDougie]

Hi jlw, do you have recording dates for the Ives? I can't seem to find any such reference in the booklet that came with the boxed set.

[One reason I ask is that this sounds very much as it he used the Critical Edition of the score, except that he even outdoes Bernstein in corrupting that final chord. That will be subject to a hefty edit before I listen again.]

OK, I can only channel being JLW but see:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/June05/Gershwin_Levine_OC507.htm

[Bryn]

OK, I can only channel being JLW but see:

http://www.musicweb-international.co...vine_OC507.htm

Thanks for that. No excuse for the extended chord then.

[Nick Armstrong]

Gosh, having now listened to both, the Tilson Thomas version is far preferable to the new Morlot/Seattle. The latter seems very soft-focus, with a 'woolly' recording; the Concertgebouw recording is much better, and better played with bracing edge to the brass that eclipses their American counterparts...

[Beef Oven!]

I’m struggling a bit with Morlot. His Ives 4 is very good indeed, but I’m not sure about his Varese Ameriques (I need more time to work out what’s going on with it). I’ve heard whispers that his Dutilleux isn’t as great as people say, and his Ives 2 doesn’t appear to pass muster. His Dvorak 9 is very good, IMV, but nothing to go wild about. Is he overrated?

[jayne lee wilson]

I’m struggling a bit with Morlot. His Ives 4 is very good indeed, but I’m not sure about his Varese Ameriques (I need more time to work out what’s going on with it). I’ve heard whispers that his Dutilleux isn’t as great as people say, and his Ives 2 doesn’t appear to pass muster. His Dvorak 9 is very good, IMV, but nothing to go wild about. Is he overrated?

As a Dutilleux-devotee with almost all of the symphony recordings extant, from Ansermet and Munch to Barenboim to Graf to Tortelier and Bychkov, it's safe to say: Morlot's stunningly-recorded 24/96s of 1 and 2 rank very, very high on the list....

[Beef Oven!]

As a Dutilleux-devotee with almost all of the symphony recordings extant, from Ansermet and Munch to Barenboim to Graf to Tortelier and Bychkov, it's safe to say: Morlot's stunningly-recorded 24/96s of 1 and 2 rank very, very high on the list....

They were only whispers .....

[jayne lee wilson]

Hi jlw, do you have recording dates for the Ives? I can't seem to find any such reference in the booklet that came with the boxed set.

[One reason I ask is that this sounds very much as it he used the Critical Edition of the score, except that he even outdoes Bernstein in corrupting that final chord. That will be subject to a hefty edit before I listen again.]

As HD linked, 1/2/3 Feb 2002. On the rear of the individual CD booklet it also says: "Ives: © Published by Peer International Corporation BMI".