BaL 25.02.17 - Ives: Symphony no. 2

[Bryn]

This forum is getting so lively I'll never keep up!
But although I haven't heard Ives 2nd for some time I'd offer a word for the Munich PO/Levine one. I bought most of "The Levine Years" series on OEHMS and was very impressed with sound and the live concerts almost throughout (thunderous Bartok Bluebeard, terrific Carter/Sessions/Wuorinen program) but most especially this Ives, c/w Harrison 3 and Gershwin.[/I]

One of those cases where it can be cheaper to buy the boxed set father then the single disc via amazon.co.uk. £127.74 for the single disc, or £46.55 for the 12 disc box.

Great to see the box includes my favourite Mozart Symphony, too.

[Beef Oven!]

Kenneth Schermerhorn & the Nashville Symphony Orchestra on Naxos, here. Listening to it at the moment. I’m very pleased with it. Although I bought a Hi-Res download of 3&4 with Ludovic Morlot & the Seattle Symphony Orchestra (incl.The Unanswered Question & Central Park in the Dark), I did not get No.2 because I didn’t need/want the coupling.

[mahlerei]

Jayne

I think both of Morlot's Ives albums are rather good. On balance I prefer them to the first two volumes of the Davis series.

Morlot a bit variable though; his Stravinsky ballets very average, although the Petrushka is recommendable.

Thanks for the heads up on Levine. Must investigate.

[Gordon]

Thanks for the info. The tempi applied by Herrmann do look to be excessively slow. I think I will give the Phase 4 CD a miss, especially as I already have the Stocky 2nd Orchestra Set. I will consider the earlier BBC recording as and when it re-appears.

Yes!! the BBC recording lasts about 37 Minutes but the PF one is about 47!!

[seabright]

Co-incidentally, the Herrmann / Stokowski Ives coupling on 'Weekend Classics' 433 017-2, both with the LSO and both in Phase-4 Stereo, mark two UK Premieres. Herrmann had given the 2nd Symphony it's first UK performance on 25 April 1956 in the aforementioned BBC studio broadcast (Pristine PASC 232) while Stokowski gave Ives's 2nd Orchestral Set its first performance here, at the RFH, on 18 June 1970, recording it in Kingsway Hall a few days later.

As it happens, Pristine has issued two Herrmann CDs: the Ives 2nd is coupled with Robert Russell Bennett's Violin Concerto, with Louis Kaufman as soloist, plus Herrmann's own "Welles Raises Kane" Suite. The other disc (PASC 202) is of a complete Columbia Broadcasting Symphony concert from 1945 featuring Handel's "Water Music" Suite (arr. Harty), Vaughan Williams's Oboe Concerto, with Mitchell Miller (they'd previously given this work its US Premiere) and Elgar's "Falstaff".

[seabright]

I just checked the Wiki entry on the work and here's what it says about Bernstein, who gave the symphony it's premiere in 1951 with the NYPO:

"Bernstein's premiere and subsequent interpretations were later widely criticized for taking liberties with the score. The score used in 1951 contained about a thousand errors, but in addition Bernstein made a substantial cut to the finale, ignored some of Ives's tempo indications, changed instrumentation, and prolonged the terminating "Bronx cheer" discord from an eighth note to more than a half note. Many conductors and audiences, influenced by Bernstein's example, have considered the last of these practices one of the trademarks of the piece. In 2000, the Charles Ives Society prepared an official critical edition of the score and authorized a recording by Kenneth Schermerhorn and the Nashville Symphony Orchestra to adhere more closely to Ives's intentions."

Presumably ES will touch on these matters in his BAL!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ives is reported to have reacted in two very different ways to the Bernstein premiere which his frail age prevented him from attending in person, so he listened to the radio broadcast (both reports purportedly from people who were with him at the time): either he was so pleased he got up and danced a little jig of delight; or he got up scowling, spat into the fireplace, and went to bed.

[richardfinegold]

Ives is reported to have reacted in two very different ways to the Bernstein premiere which his frail age prevented him from attending in person, so he listened to the radio broadcast (both reports purportedly from people who were with him at the time): either he was so pleased he got up and danced a little jig of delight; or he got up scowling, spat into the fireplace, and went to bed.

For all that he may of tampered with the score, at the time, LvB advocacy for Ives must of have been pretty significant. What are the chances that his music would be known at all without It?

[makropulos]

I just checked the Wiki entry on the work and here's what it says about Bernstein, who gave the symphony it's premiere in 1951 with the NYPO:

"Bernstein's premiere and subsequent interpretations were later widely criticized for taking liberties with the score. The score used in 1951 contained about a thousand errors, but in addition Bernstein made a substantial cut to the finale, ignored some of Ives's tempo indications, changed instrumentation, and prolonged the terminating "Bronx cheer" discord from an eighth note to more than a half note. Many conductors and audiences, influenced by Bernstein's example, have considered the last of these practices one of the trademarks of the piece. In 2000, the Charles Ives Society prepared an official critical edition of the score and authorized a recording by Kenneth Schermerhorn and the Nashville Symphony Orchestra to adhere more closely to Ives's intentions."

Presumably ES will touch on these matters in his BAL!

I'm sure he will. For anyone interested, Bernstein's marked up conducting score (complete with pause added in crayon over the last chord) can be viewed here: http://archives.nyphil.org/index.php...e=printedMusic

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

For all that he may of tampered with the score, at the time, LvB advocacy for Ives must of have been pretty significant. What are the chances that his music would be known at all without It?

Pretty good - before LB, a number of performers had brought the Music to the public (John Kirkpatrick, Nicholas Slonimsky, Bernard Hermann, Lou Harrison amongst them). LB's advocacy - particularly his writings, he didn't conduct/record all that much - was invaluable, the name of Ives wouldn't have reached such a wide audience/readership as early without him, but he was following a wave of interest in the late '40s/early '50s that would have continued without him.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm sure he will. For anyone interested, Bernstein's marked up conducting score (complete with pause added in crayon over the last chord) can be viewed here: http://archives.nyphil.org/index.php...e=printedMusic

- many thanks, makro!

[seabright]

Yes!! the BBC recording lasts about 37 Minutes but the PF one is about 47!!

Apropos 10-minute differences in timings, I recently came across a video of Klemperer conducting the Beethoven 7th at the RFH and it lasted all of 45 minutes! The score's tempo indications of "vivace," "presto," "allegro con brio" etc. weren't remotely observed. It was rather like watching a film played back in slow motion, or a 45rpm disc played at 33.1/3rd, yet the audience went completely wild at the end. The first comment under the You Tube upload pretty much sums up what the audience must have felt: "Who else could achieve such results at such slow tempi? Throughout the entire second movement, I found myself understanding things about the music - and the world - which had to me hitherto been hidden. Thank you, Dr. Klemperer."

I only mention this because I also came across John McCabe's 'Records and Recording' review of the Herrmann 'Phase-4' version of Ives No. 2: "The performance is affectionate, warm and sensitive, finely played by the LSO, and overall a less aggressive, less mannered interpretation than Bernstein's admittedly exciting CBS performance. The recording, excellently balanced, is warmly glowing, with very good presence and a praise-worthy lack of gimmicks."

In short, as with Klemperer's slow-motion Beethoven, timings are clearly not everything! And for anyone with 45 minutes to spare, should they want to hear it, here is the Klemps LvB7 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiIh80jYeGE&t=2265s

[Beef Oven!]

'An original American about to gatecrash the European party'

[Pulcinella]

Oh dear: another 'twofer'.


I do wish Andrew would stop trying to lead the debate!

[Beef Oven!]

Oh dear: another 'twofer'.


I do wish Andrew would stop trying to lead the debate!

I’m enjoying the discussion - I think it’s pretty good so far
.