BaL 11.02.17 - Bach: Mass in B minor

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I was interested to hear that Karajan doubled the obligato parts in order to eliminate the effect created by breathing in very long passages. A very practical solution, which reminds me of the problems I've experienced many times when playing the oboe obligato part in "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring".

[Stanfordian]

I'm not sure if this release was mentioned on BAL but there is a new live recording of the B minor Mass that I am enjoying from Peter Dijkstra directing the Chor des Bayerischen Rundfunks and period instrument ensemble Concerto Köln. His soloists are Christina Landshamer (soprano), Anke Vondung (mezzo-soprano), Kenneth Tarver (tenor) & Andreas Wolf (bass-baritone). Recorded in 2016 Herkulessaal, Munich on BR Klassik. I'm looking forward to hearing the BAL on listen again later on.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I was interested to hear that Karajan doubled the obligato parts in order to eliminate the effect created by breathing in very long passages.

Yes - the story behind this was mentioned in Richard Osborne's The Consummate Conductor series on Karajan in the '80s. Not "doubling" as in "both playing exactly the same thing all the time", but that the second flautist covered the beginnings and ends of phrases whilst the first took a breath. Apparently, Gareth Morris was strongly against the idea and was frequently embarrassed when people congratulated him about his wonderful breath control; the final straw came when a vicar praised him for this, and he felt he had to "confess" to him what was really going on.

It can be said that the practice gives the line more of an "Organ"-like phrasing - but I confess that I find myself forgetting to breathe in as I listen to the recording (not recommended for asthmatics!), and I prefer the more human "frailty" of the flautist snatching a breath between phrases.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

and I prefer the more human "frailty" of the flautist snatching a breath between phrases.

Much of Bach's writing seems to be influenced by his keyboard style, where breathing isn't an issue.

[Bryn]

Much of Bach's writing seems to be influenced by his keyboard style, where breathing isn't an issue.

I know a few keyboard players who would disagree with you there, Christian Wolff being one.

[Richard Barrett]

I would say that breathing is an issue in almost all music... the oboe obbligato in the first chorus of Cantata 124 Meinen Jesum laß' ich nicht is maybe the most extreme example of long unbroken phrases in Bach's wind parts. I think we can trust a musician of Bach's knowledge and abilities not to have written impractical or unidiomatic parts for his instrumentalists, and probably the assumption that he expected such a long cantilena to be continuous à la Karajan is what needs to be questioned, as a Romantic accretion on Baroque practice with its different attitudes towards phrasing and articulation. In a resonant performing venue like a church, short breath-pauses would in any case not be so noticeable.

[Tony Halstead]

I was interested to hear that Karajan doubled the obligato parts in order to eliminate the effect created by breathing in very long passages. A very practical solution, which reminds me of the problems I've experienced many times when playing the oboe obligato part in "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring".

But surely those enormously long slurs are merely editorial, and quite wrong-headed.
They aren't there in the autograph MS; the slurs are very short, 2 or 3 notes at a time, and none of the 3-note groups are connected by a slur to the next group. In theory, this would allow some surreptitious 'top-up sniffs', and as RB says, in a resonant venue these wouldn't be so noticeable.

[jonfan]

But surely those enormously long slurs are merely editorial, and quite wrong-headed.
They aren't there in the autograph MS; the slurs are very short, 2 or 3 notes at a time, and none of the 3-note groups are connected by a slur to the next group. In theory, this would allow some surreptitious 'top-up sniffs', and as RB says, in a resonant venue these wouldn't be so noticeable.

A school orchestra came and accompanied our church choir in 'Jesu joy' and few years ago and the 11 year old oboe and flute players divided the line between them. I hope JSB would have approved this practical avoidance of keeling over through lack of air.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But surely those enormously long slurs are merely editorial, and quite wrong-headed.
They aren't there in the autograph MS; the slurs are very short, 2 or 3 notes at a time, and none of the 3-note groups are connected by a slur to the next group. In theory, this would allow some surreptitious 'top-up sniffs', and as RB says, in a resonant venue these wouldn't be so noticeable.

They aren't slurs. They're phrase marks. Otherwise they wouldn't contain repeated notes. They may well be editorial, but musically they make sense. The best places to breathe are when the choir is singing, in bars 52-60. After that, it just calls for powerful lungs.

[makropulos]

They aren't slurs. They're phrase marks. Otherwise they wouldn't contain repeated notes. They may well be editorial, but musically they make sense. The best places to breathe are when the choir is singing, in bars 52-60. After that, it just calls for powerful lungs.

They are entirely editorial and while it may make sense to you (and no doubt others), they are not necessarily Bach's sense. As Tony points out, they are nowhere to be found in the autograph (which you can look at on imslp).

[Richard Barrett]

They aren't slurs. They're phrase marks. Otherwise they wouldn't contain repeated notes.

It's not unknown for slurs to occur between repeated notes - see the "Grosse Fuge" for example.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It's not unknown for slurs to occur between repeated notes - see the "Grosse Fuge" for example.

Not on the oboe though.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

They are entirely editorial and while it may make sense to you (and no doubt others), they are not necessarily Bach's sense. As Tony points out, they are nowhere to be found in the autograph (which you can look at on imslp).

This isn't really the issue. Take them all away and the problem of breathing persists. Hence Karajan's "solution".

[mikealdren]

Circular breathing??

[Daniel]

It's not unknown for slurs to occur between repeated notes - see the "Grosse Fuge" for example.

Not on the oboe though.

That's something I didn't know, EA. Slurs between repeated notes seem to crop up not that uncommonly, I've normally seen it in piano parts, though can't think of any examples offhand. It's sometimes quite ambiguous and at such times all one can do is make a nervy judgement based on context it seems.


Haven't heard this BAL though having read comments here I listened online today to a fair portion of the recommended Concerto Copenhagen, Mortensen version, which is as delightful as early reports suggested, and certainly seems like a must have.

On the subject of masses, your list of contenders has a pretty substantial one, EA! Many thanks for all the work.