BaL 11.02.17 - Bach: Mass in B minor

[vinteuil]

- I'm a little concerned about the speeds; it's the only version of the Christmas Oratorio that uses three CDs - is that DHM's silliness, or is it a more "spacious" performance than others?

... the three CDs have timings of 58.56, 51.53, 52.19 - say a total timing of some 2hrs 43 mins. How does this compare with other Christmas Oratorios?? [... I see Suzuki takes 2hrs 23 mins, Jacobs some 2hrs 32 mins ]






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[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... the three CDs have timings of 58.56, 51.53, 52.19 - say a total timing of some 2hrs 43 mins. How does this compare with other Christmas Oratorios?? [... I see Suzuki takes 2hrs 23 mins, Jacobs some 2hrs 32 mins ]

Crumbs! That's longer than the Richter recording (with Janowitz and Wunderlich) that I first got to know the work with! All the ones I have (Suzuki, Christophers, Harnoncourt 1, JEGgers, Jacobs) are around the two-and-a-half hours mark. Of course, it's more a sense of "spirit" rather than the stop watch - it is one of my favourite pieces of Music (accompanying my Christmas periods for the last ten years), and the cost of the box is very tempting.

[ostuni]

Those interested in the OVPP controversy will find this provides a useful conspectus: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Article...ontroversy.pdf

Well, 'useful' is one word, I suppose - but it does seem (admittedly I've only read it very rapidly) somewhat biased against Parrott & Rifkin, and hence OVPP.

[Pulcinella]

Crumbs! That's longer than the Richter recording (with Janowitz and Wunderlich) that I first got to know the work with! All the ones I have (Suzuki, Christophers, Harnoncourt 1, JEGgers, Jacobs) are around the two-and-a-half hours mark. Of course, it's more a sense of "spirit" rather than the stop watch - it is one of my favourite pieces of Music (accompanying my Christmas periods for the last ten years), and the cost of the box is very tempting.

I assumed that the three CDs were simply 'transfers' of original LPs, which would presumably be one 'cantata' per side.
That of course may still be the case (I have no idea when the recording was made!) but yes, it is a bit slow by other standards.
Still tempted though.....
I have the same group's recording of the Magnificat (c/w that of CPE Bach; no date is given for the JSB recording, though the CPEB was recorded in 1966, and the disc has P and C both 1995), so I will remind myself of the sound they make before clicking the button.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Deutsche%2BHM/G0100013714289

[teamsaint]

I assumed that the three CDs were simply 'transfers' of original LPs, which would presumably be one 'cantata' per side.
That of course may still be the case (I have no idea when the recording was made!) but yes, it is a bit slow by other standards.
Still tempted though.....
I have the same group's recording of the Magnificat (c/w that of CPE Bach; no date is given for the JSB recording, though the CPEB was recorded in 1966, and the disc has P and C both 1995), so I will remind myself of the sound they make before clicking the button.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/D...G0100013714289

Their own website suggests the JSB Magnificat might have been recorded in 1989.

http://www.lapetitebande.be/disco.php

( very nicely presented website, BTW).

I picked up another DHM LPB 10 cd set yesterday for about £11.

gone up a bit now.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007AR7QZI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Does anybody know if there are many of their performances in the huge JSB Brilliant Classics box? Or can anybody find a full listing for that box?

[AmpH]

Does anybody know if there are many of their performances in the huge JSB Brilliant Classics box? Or can anybody find a full listing for that box?

You can download the booklet ( which includes full track listing ) for the box from the website here :-

http://www.brilliantclassics.com/articles/j/js-bach-complete-edition/

[Bryn]

You can download the booklet ( which includes full track listing ) for the box from the website here :-

http://www.brilliantclassics.com/art...plete-edition/

I can find no mention of La Petite Bande in that pdf but that does not necessarily mean they do not feature in one of the earlier versions of the Brilliant Classics box (there have been a number of versions of the box, with numerous changes of performers), though I doubt it.

[teamsaint]

Must be a chance there are some LPB recordings in the Bach box, as there are at least 3 of their opera recordings in the equivalent Mozart box.

[MickyD]

- I'm a little concerned about the speeds; it's the only version of the Christmas Oratorio that uses three CDs - is that DHM's silliness, or is it a more "spacious" performance than others?

Yes, DHM's silliness I'm afraid - as Vinteuil mentioned, Cantatas 1 and 2 take 58'56", Cantatas 3 and 4 take 51'53" and Cantatas 5 and 6 take 52"19". They could have been accommodated on 2 discs, surely.

But take note that unlike the other works in the box, this performance is NOT with La Petite Bande but with Collegium Aureum - I think it dates from around 1973, so not as HIPP as later versions would be. Nonetheless it has always had a place in my affections and I think it used to be Nicholas Anderson's favourite, too.

[Richard Barrett]

Returning to the Mass:

I don't have Rifkin's or Parrott's writings on the subject to hand, but, as someone with an open mind towards OVPP, I was just wondering about two things: (a) given that the Mass wasn't composed for any conceivable occasion in Leipzig (is that right?) but was maybe intended for submission for the dedication of the new Hofkirche in Dresden, which eventually took place in 1751, and given that the Dresden vocal ensemble was probably (?) not OVPP, is it really more authentic to perform it that way? and (b) given the preceding facts, and the fact that the material Bach reused from earlier works in his Mass was not in any way (?) adapted to being performed by what presumably would be a larger ensemble, might that mean that Bach allowed for non-OVPP performances of them even if they would usually be performed that way? (and what about those among his secular cantatas which involve a vocal ensemble?)
Does anyone know what the OVPP zealots have to say about these things?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Must be a chance there are some LPB recordings in the Bach box, as there are at least 3 of their opera recordings in the equivalent Mozart box.

The Mozart recordings were made for the ACCENT label, and licensed to BRILLIANT. ACCENT appears not to have made any recordings since 2009, if their website is up-to-date:

https://web.archive.org/web/20091219144653/http://www.accent-records.com:80/public/news.php

The Bach recordings were made for Deutsche Harmonia Mundi, a company whose recordings are now owned by SONY, who don't "licence out" their back catalogues whilst still under copyright.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Returning to the Mass:

I don't have Rifkin's or Parrott's writings on the subject to hand, but, as someone with an open mind towards OVPP, I was just wondering about two things: (a) given that the Mass wasn't composed for any conceivable occasion in Leipzig (is that right?) but was maybe intended for submission for the dedication of the new Hofkirche in Dresden, which eventually took place in 1751, and given that the Dresden vocal ensemble was probably (?) not OVPP, is it really more authentic to perform it that way? and (b) given the preceding facts, and the fact that the material Bach reused from earlier works in his Mass was not in any way (?) adapted to being performed by what presumably would be a larger ensemble, might that mean that Bach allowed for non-OVPP performances of them even if they would usually be performed that way? (and what about those among his secular cantatas which involve a vocal ensemble?)
Does anyone know what the OVPP zealots have to say about these things?

I don't have my copy of the Parrott handy - I've lost track of who I've leant it to - but IIRC, Parrottt provided striking evidence that OVPP was standard practice at most German churches, Dresden included. The exact questions specifically connected to Dresden and the B minor Mass you raise are covered in one of the chapters in The Essential Bach Choir - I (obviously!) think I've remembered correctly.

[Bryn]

The Mozart recordings were made for the ACCENT label, and licensed to BRILLIANT. ACCENT appears not to have made any recordings since 2009, ...

Here's a forthcoming Accent release.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Here's a forthcoming Accent release.

I vkiist knew there would be!

[teamsaint]

The Mozart recordings were made for the ACCENT label, and licensed to BRILLIANT. ACCENT appears not to have made any recordings since 2009, if their website is up-to-date:

https://web.archive.org/web/20091219144653/http://www.accent-records.com:80/public/news.php

The Bach recordings were made for Deutsche Harmonia Mundi, a company whose recordings are now owned by SONY, who don't "licence out" their back catalogues whilst still under copyright.

Interesting. Thanks.

That link from Amps does have full performer details , which is good.