BaL 11.02.17 - Bach: Mass in B minor

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Circular breathing??

Goossens and Rothwell didn't recommend it. I once saw Holliger doing circular breathing in a recital. It looked grotesque! I've tried it, but found it very difficult to maintain a good embouchure.

[Daniel]

p.s I should add my agreement with those more knowledgeable than I, that I think the doubling of the oboe part sounds like a bad idea, neutering part of its natural expression. As someone who enjoys Bach on the piano there maybe an element of hypocrisy/inconsistency in that, it's just that breathing is such a fundamental part of wind music, that smoothing it over it seems something like removing 'difficult' consonants from Schubert Lieder. In this case anyway it seems that the phrasing is not Bach's.


And while I remember, I agree with you, ferney, about the Dunedin Consort recording (see below), which I have. It always felt slightly airless and I rarely listen to it now, and I think it's probably down to the close mic-ing.

I found the voices sounded very close-miked when I heard excerpts from it when it came out - which is cheating for a OVPP recording! And totally unnecessary. It put me off buying it.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

This isn't really the issue. Take them all away and the problem of breathing persists. Hence Karajan's "solution".

If one agrees that it is a problem.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

p.s I should add my agreement with those more knowledgeable than I, that I think the doubling of the oboe part sounds like a bad idea, neutering part of its natural expression.

The doubling in the Karajan recording did not involve in two players playing at once - it was like a relay, with one player taking over from the other. A practical solution without any inherent musical drawbacks.

In this case anyway it seems that the phrasing is not Bach's.

No, it's mine, and therefore wrong, but the makings do at least suggest the least worst places to breathe.

[Daniel]

The doubling in the Karajan recording did not involve in two players playing at once - it was like a relay, with one player taking over from the other.

Yes, that's what I'd understood, I was just continuing ferney's use of 'doubling' in 123, in reference to the Richard Osborne book - sorry, should've made it clearer.

A practical solution without any inherent musical drawbacks.

As mentioned, I think there are some definite musical drawbacks.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Can I just point out that the instruments involved in the Karajan recording are Flutes

[Daniel]

Yes you certainly may. I picked up the oboe idea from 130 and continued from there, though the principle remains the same I think.

[BBMmk2]

I heard the recommended version yesterday, and thankfully, I am quite happy with JEGGER's DG version. IMO, not quite dissimilar?

[Richard Barrett]

I once saw Holliger doing circular breathing in a recital. It looked grotesque!

Playing the oboe looks a bit grotesque anyway, if you don't mind me saying.

Well, I picked up the Mortensen recording and I've listened to it twice, only on headphones I should add. I find it very hard to believe that the engineers haven't "helped" the balance between voices and instruments (and between instruments) here and there. Apart from that, everything is in its right and proper place but to me seems a little too clinical and uninvolving as a performance. So I think the field is still wide open for a OoTVPP recording of this work.

[ostuni]

Staying with the flute(s), the extract played on BaL was the Domine Deus. When Bach revived this movement, about 10 years later (for the Christmas Day Gloria in excelsis Deo, BWV191, he labelled the score '2 flauti trav all' unis' and in nearly all the HIP recordings that I've heard (and in all the performances I've played in), that's how it's done. So, although I agree that (my understanding of ) Bach's aesthetic certainly doesn't demand the sort of unbroken legato that Karajan was seeking, it certainly is possible (and is customary) for the 2 players to stagger the breaths (while also trying their best to keep those unison high F#s in tune...).

The other flute obbligato, the Benedictus, is genuinely solo - so the flautist does need to break the line in places (and it was interesting, listening to Katy Bircher on the Mortensen recording, to hear a few options that I hadn't previously tried).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So I think the field is still wide open for a OoTVPP recording of this work.

Parrott's TVpP kicks the ball right between the goalposts in this wide open field for me.


Hopelessly out of my depth in this metaphor!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Staying with the flute(s), the extract played on BaL was the Domine Deus. When Bach revived this movement, about 10 years later (for the Christmas Day Gloria in excelsis Deo, BWV191, he labelled the score '2 flauti trav all' unis' and in nearly all the HIP recordings that I've heard (and in all the performances I've played in), that's how it's done. So, although I agree that (my understanding of ) Bach's aesthetic certainly doesn't demand the sort of unbroken legato that Karajan was seeking, it certainly is possible (and is customary) for the 2 players to stagger the breaths (while also trying their best to keep those unison high F#s in tune...).

Ooh - bravo, ostuni!

See! I said Karajan sounded more "authentic" than Richter.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Ooh - bravo, ostuni!

See! I said Karajan sounded more "authentic" than Richter.

It still doesn't satisfy those who argue that "Bach expected the poor players to gasp for breath, so the embarrassing gaps are an essential part of the performance".

[Bryn]

It still doesn't satisfy those who argue that "Bach expected the poor players to gasp for breath, so the embarrassing gaps are an essential part of the performance".

Perhaps he was writing for good, rather then poor, players who were adept at snatching breath as and when least disruptive to the flow.

[Richard Barrett]

Parrott's TVpP kicks the ball right between the goalposts in this wide open field for me.

Do I have that one?

<scans the virtual shelves>

Yes I do! I shall report back presently.