BaL 28.01.17 - Sibelius: Tapiola Op. 112

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I never thought of Tapiola to be scary music? Interesting!

Nor I, Bbm - nor Sibelius if the idea made at the start of the review (one that was also raised a couple of weeks back on RR when a new recording of the work was commented upon by another reviewer) that for Finns, The Forest is a place of refuge, security, escape etc. That's why I think it might be, as you say, interesting to see comments from those who do experience what Macl describes as "emotional states that are extreme & frightening" (experiences that Andrew Mellor frequently suggested yesterday that he shared, in spite of his opening comments to the contrary).

[ardcarp]

I'm sure these have been quoted before, but as this thread is quite long, here's a reminder of Sibelius's words to his publisher:


In Pohjola there are thick, dark forests
that dream wild dreams, forever secret.
Tapio's eerie dwellings are there
and half-glimpsed spirits, and the voices of twilight.

According to Wiki a contemporary-ish Finnish composer Leevi Madetoja (who he?) noted, "At times we hear the melancholy, repeated call of an elf, at times a lonely wanderer in the woods is giving vent to the pain of life. A beautiful work, technically close to the seventh symphony."

So there have been attempts to sex-up the programme of the piece and to ally it to the 7th Symphony.

I found this quite helpful:

http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_tapiola.htm

[BBMmk2]

Nor I, Bbm - nor Sibelius if the idea made at the start of the review (one that was also raised a couple of weeks back on RR when a new recording of the work was commented upon by another reviewer) that for Finns, The Forest is a place of refuge, security, escape etc. That's why I think it might be, as you say, interesting to see comments from those who do experience what Macl describes as "emotional states that are extreme & frightening" (experiences that Andrew Mellor frequently suggested yesterday that he shared, in spite of his opening comments to the contrary).

Makes you change everything that you think about Sibelius tone poems, when they are like this, and others, perhaps too. In that regard, the forest, a place of refuge and security can be seen quite plainly.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

ardy - Leevi Madetoja is a rather good composer (top of my list of "Which Neglected Finnish/Swedish/Norwegian or similar Composers are You Listening To?") - absorbed the early (c2nd Symphony) Sibelian style perhaps a little too much in this work, but well worth spending a spare three-quarters of an hour listening to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHbOYG9pVc8

Other works of his are youTube-available, and the three Symphonies (with other orchestral works) are available on two CDs for under a tenner in total (incl P&P) from Amazon - played by the Iceland SO conducted by Petri Sakari in characteristically good CHANDOS sound. Highly recommended.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Madetoja-Syms-1-2-Various/dp/B000000AQM

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Madetoja-Sym-3-Various/dp/B000000AOV

[teamsaint]

Nor I, Bbm - nor Sibelius if the idea made at the start of the review (one that was also raised a couple of weeks back on RR when a new recording of the work was commented upon by another reviewer) that for Finns, The Forest is a place of refuge, security, escape etc. That's why I think it might be, as you say, interesting to see comments from those who do experience what Macl describes as "emotional states that are extreme & frightening" (experiences that Andrew Mellor frequently suggested yesterday that he shared, in spite of his opening comments to the contrary).

Reading this thread and for example Mac's post, but also others, does lead me back to something I often contemplate , which has connections to study of literature, which is about the differing and often unexpressed ways we listen, and respond.
Actually, this work seems a very good place to contemplate potential different approaches, as have been alluded to in the thread. One can start with the words of Sibelius, and explore the idea of tone poem world. Or you might try to look into the mind of Sibelius, and possibly see a psychological drama unfolding. An alternative might be to explore the ideas of the Forest , possibly as a place of safety ,in a geopolitical context, ( Finland's relationship with Russia?) and to try to find what the music reveals about the composer's view of, and place in that context. And of course, there are important relationships with the music that went before Sibelius, and from which he drew his inspiration and technical expertise.
Often the context or approach for opinions or critiques go unsaid. Understandable of course, time is limited.Where we do tend to see some of those approaches voiced is around music that was thought to be ( or perhaps not to be) progressive or cutting edge at the time of writing. The added layer of complexity of course ( compared to literature) is the effect of the performance tradition on our perception of the music, and how we receive it.
Just as one example , Ferney made some comments about the Libretto of Cosi Fan Tutti recently, which led me to thinking more about ways that gender politics can affect the way we listen, and how this might change with widening experience, or in different contexts or moods .

Anyway, just a few random Sunday morning thoughts, posted cautiously .

[Beef Oven!]

ardy - Leevi Madetoja is a rather good composer (top of my list of "Which Neglected Finnish/Swedish/Norwegian or similar Composers are You Listening To?") - absorbed the early (c2nd Symphony) Sibelian style perhaps a little too much in this work, but well worth spending a spare three-quarters of an hour listening to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHbOYG9pVc8

Other works of his are youTube-available, and the three Symphonies (with other orchestral works) are available on two CDs for under a tenner in total (incl P&P) from Amazon - played by the Iceland SO conducted by Petri Sakari in characteristically good CHANDOS sound. Highly recommended.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Madetoja-Syms-1-2-Various/dp/B000000AQM

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Madetoja-Sy.../dp/B000000AOV

Madetoja I struggle with. To be fair, I only have a 2 CD set on Ultima of his symphonies 1-3 tone poems and other orchestral works. I listen, nothing much happens and I don’t come back from one year to the next.

Currently listening to Symphony #1, Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra, Segerstam

[Petrushka]

In my message 22 I noted, while listening to the 1953 Karajan recording, 'a hint of menace, even fear'. Anyone who has been alone in a wood or forest even in daylight at the height of summer will surely recognise that dual feeling of both security and fear, the stillness and the slight noise, an animal? a bird? that suddenly startles.

Sibelius placed these words at the head of the score:

'Widespread they stand, the Northland's dusky forests
Ancient, mysterious, brooding savage dreams
Within them dwells the Forest's mighty god
And wood-sprites in the gloom weave magic spells'

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Sibelius placed these words at the head of the score:

'Widespread they stand, the Northland's dusky forests
Ancient, mysterious, brooding savage dreams
Within them dwells the Forest's mighty god
And wood-sprites in the gloom weave magic spells'

To be pedantic, the words he gave at the request of his publisher were:

On metsät Pohjolassa sankat, tummat, ne ikisalat, haaveet hurjat loi. Asunnot Tapion on siellä kummat, haltiat väikkyy, hämyn äänet soi.

... and "hurjat" doesn't necessarily mean "savage" - "wild" or "primal" is, I believe, the more usual Finnish meaning of the word? (I am on very shaky ground here, and would love to hear from Finnish-fluent Forumistas.) I feel the thrill of the work intensely - but it doesn't "frighten" me (not even in any of the Karajan versions). But, fwiw, I don't "hear" Finnish forests, either - how can I: I've never been in any! Like LMP, I don't hear Music in this way - the emotions/landscapes I hear are Musical ones - the ones created specifically from the rifts between B minor tonalities and modalities; lines and blocks; slow pedals and rapid figurations; groups and masses.

Mellor made clear early on that he wanted performances that emphasised "mood" rather than those which focussed more on structural matter - and demonstrated his preference by dismissing the Spano recording. For me (again fwiw), "mood" is created precisely by structure - how themes, rhythms, harmonies, modes/keys are used; the timing, placing and recurrence of the elements (ho-ho). "Mood" can no more be created by underplaying structural elements than it can by the flawed intonation and ensemble he criticised in the Maazel/VPO excerpt he chose.

[gradus]

Segerstam's performance deserves the plaudits but for a Sibelian contrast could I recommend the same forces in Lemminkainen's Return - sensational.

[jayne lee wilson]

In my message 22 I noted, while listening to the 1953 Karajan recording, 'a hint of menace, even fear'. Anyone who has been alone in a wood or forest even in daylight at the height of summer will surely recognise that dual feeling of both security and fear, the stillness and the slight noise, an animal? a bird? that suddenly startles.

Sibelius placed these words at the head of the score:

'Widespread they stand, the Northland's dusky forests
Ancient, mysterious, brooding savage dreams
Within them dwells the Forest's mighty god
And wood-sprites in the gloom weave magic spells'

Thank you so much for this, some earthy common sense.

I've been out this morning in our wild shrubby garden, near the edge of the fields and woods, surrounded by the bleak contrasts of winter, nature's otherness: the wind's soft roar in the black trees, the dense evergreen shrubs and straggly, hieroglyphic cedars; the mess of decaying leaves, the first tiny shoots of bluebells; the bare muddy patches where the rain stayed too long.
Topping up the feeders and scattering food around the orchard and the lawn I see the Robins, Dunnocks and Blackbirds with their almost reptilian eye, like little dinosaurs; the cackling of Jackdaws, the almost primal, throaty vronk of Ravens....the sparrow-hawk swoops! Threat, dread and panic, the whoomph of wings - then silence. I love them, I'm with them; they comfort me, yet how alien they are.

If you experience any wild nature anywhere, it's hard not to hear its many voices in Tapiola.....we are a part of it yet separate, unable to escape our consciousness. We reflect, cold and stoical within. As you say so aptly, a feeling of "security and fear". A necessary Respect.

Those last, warmer sounds in Tapiola might be that Respect - that recognition; that reconciliation to the wilderness all around. What are Gods and Spirits but our fearful projection, our need to find mythical meaning in the cold, un-human alternative reality of the natural world?

[Petrushka]

This might be of interest to admirers of Tapiola and, like JLW's excellent post, captures the essence of this extraordinary work.

http://dustofhue.com/1999/04/tapiola/#sthash.p4FOuAFE.dpbs

[ardcarp]

Anyone who has been alone in a wood or forest even in daylight at the height of summer will surely recognise that dual feeling of both security and fear, the stillness

...and (especially in a pine forest) disorientation. Would it be too fanciful to suggest that the tritonal harmonies which abound in this piece leave you wondering, at times, where you are heading tonally? It's not quite Verklarte Nacht, but Tapiola sometimes leaves you guessing as to your metaphorical whereabouts.

[BBMmk2]

JLW, heard the Segerstam on Radio 3 this morning. Very worth while getting. Many thanks.

[Maclintick]

...and (especially in a pine forest) disorientation. Would it be too fanciful to suggest that the tritonal harmonies which abound in this piece leave you wondering, at times, where you are heading tonally? It's not quite Verklarte Nacht, but Tapiola sometimes leaves you guessing as to your metaphorical whereabouts.

Absolutely. Tapiola is no musical Baedeker guide like the Alpine Symphony, & offers little waymarking to help us orientate ourselves. As soon as we’ve spotted that cairn on the ridge above, the tritonal mists descend, though we might still hear JLW’s ravens vronking through the fog ( felicitously onomatopoeic, Jayne)

The fearsome climax towards the end of the piece, a calamity presaged by inarticulate dread, is possibly the most violent outburst in all Sibelius. Do these chords, as fateful as the hammer-blows in Mahler 6, find their analogue in the natural world, or are they phantoms stirred by our own fears & inner demons ? Have we humans enraged Tapio through our hubristic invasion of his frozen, half-lit domain, so that he conjures, Prospero-like, this raging, icy storm to destroy us ? Tapiola holds onto its secrets.

What isn’t so secret about this passage is that Nemesis awaits. SOMETHING is coming to get us. As has been commented, for the Finns the forest may provide sanctuary from the Russian Bear lurking just over the border, or it may contain truly wild & terrifying real-life grizzlies like Leonardo Di Caprio’s predator in The Revenant . Perhaps this explains Finland’s ranking as having the 3rd highest level of gun ownership in the world ( 45 guns per 100 inhabitants - over 7 times the UK ratio) only exceeded by Switzerland ( Well, they have a lot of loot to protect ) & the US ( America First ! )

In the 20s Tapiola & Sibelius’s oeuvre in general appeared a bit old hat & last-century to the cutting-edge vogue-obsessed critics, seeing him as a composer with fading appeal. He himself was entering a period of crisis in his artistic life, feeling isolated, out-of-step & out-of-tune with developments in modernism, though the ending of Tapiola might be read as a bit of a statement “ We’re not quite done with B major just yet, thank you, Herr Schoenberg”.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As has been commented, for the Finns the forest may provide sanctuary from the Russian Bear lurking just over the border, or it may contain truly wild & terrifying real-life grizzlies like Leonardo Di Caprio’s predator in The Revenant .

I think you're venturing into the realms of fantasy here, Jones - nobody has made this "comment" - least of all Sibelius.

In the 20s Tapiola & Sibelius’s oeuvre in general appeared a bit old hat & last-century to the cutting-edge vogue-obsessed critics, seeing him as a composer with fading appeal. He himself was entering a period of crisis in his artistic life, feeling isolated, out-of-step & out-of-tune with developments in atonal modernism, though the ending of Tapiola might be read as a bit of a statement “ We’re not quite done with C major just yet, thank you, Herr Schoenberg”.

Well - it's B minor (with a picardy third). And "Atonal modernism" wasn't at all in vogue in the 1920s - considered very "last decade" in the anti-German post-War world. If Sibelius felt he needed to make "a bit of a statement" in Tapiola, and if the critics were "vogue-obsessed", then such statements/obsessions were with/towards Neo-Classical Stravinsky, Hindemith, Les Six, Weill - none of whom were "quite done with" tonalities.