BaL 21.01.17 - Beethoven: String Quartet no. 12 in E flat, Op. 127

[verismissimo]

There's a much more general point to be made here about Radio 3's attitude to pre hi-fi recordings (ie roughly everything before the mid 1950s). They won't have them except in very rare, special occasions. So they allowed Andrew McGregor to interview me about Nellie Melba's first recordings from 1904 a few years ago, but it was clearly felt that they were taking a big risk. Simply getting one or two complaints has them running for cover.

And it's clear, as others have said here, that transfer technology and skills have improved immeasurably over recent years, so 78s (for example) sound far better than they did.

The blanket ban on old recordings means that music-lovers, teachers and students have no chance of hearing the greatest recorded performers of the past on the radio - among them Patti, Melba, Tetrazzini, Leider, Caruso, Melchior, Paderewski, Kreisler, Rachmaninov, Elgar, Nikisch ... Busch ... . At least, nowadays, we and they can go to YouTube, where transfer skills range from the excellent to the dire.

It's disappointing that so many on these boards seem to share Radio 3's prejudice and lack of courage in this area.

[ahinton]

Leicester City, Arsenal, Manchester United and Spurs, Brexiteers and Trumpistas - all phenomena that anyone might reasonably expect to find their way into a discussion of the recorded history of one of Beethoven's greatest and most moving of string quartets, of course; indeed, it's a wonder and a half that the thread almost reached 100 posts without reference to them!

Loved the Joyce Hatto one, though! Shame that no mention was made of William Beethoven-Coupe...

[underthecountertenor]

WHAT!!!

Now you're definitely over the top...

I don't think so. I was careful to qualify what I said by the use of 'perhaps'. But I've never much liked the phrase, and for me it has been further tarnished by its recent use (by the above-mentioned factions) to shout down opposing arguments instead of engaging with them. It just strikes me that you could have made your argument without the confrontational opener, which surely serves only to raise hackles. Mind you, I'm a fine one to talk, having form in that regard hereabouts.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's disappointing that so many on these boards seem to share Radio 3's prejudice and lack of courage in this area.

???!!!

[Mal]

Get over it people. It makes sense to favour the modern recording...

What? Get over the truth and just soak up falsehood and spin?

It might make sense to you to favour a modern recording, but that doesn't get round the fact that SJ totally disagrees with you, and recommends the Busch in no uncertain terms. Listen between 1.24.15 and 1.25.15 here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08bb7q9

Listen on to 1.27.15 to hear Andrew's response, to see how he spins it to the Belcea. Unbelievable!

I remember years ago a Third Programme feature recommended Toscanini's Beethoven 7th as streets ahead of all other recordings, and I bought it, put the LP on and could hardly believe the horrible noise coming out!

But SJ stresses that the polishing up on the Busch is really good. Just listen to the samples in the programme! I can't hear why anyone, except the most audiophile extremist pedant, would be upset by the sound quality.

1930s sound is an acquired taste, even if it hugely improved now since those days.

I disagree, I hadn't listened to much 1930s mono until I listened to the Busch on Dutton and though it was marvellous from the get go. I'd recommend anyone listen closely to SJs programme - he plays a lot of the Busch version - and if you like it plump for it, as he recommends! (I found the Belcea rather restrained, in toto - I can see that putting novices off, rather than the more straightforward/dynamic/heartfelt performance by the Busch...)

[verismissimo]

???!!!

Cryptic, ferney. Don't understand? Don't agree? Both?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Cryptic, ferney. Don't understand? Don't agree? Both?

I don't think that there are "so many" Forumistas who "lack the courage" to listen to pre-War recordings and voice their enthusiasm. The majority of comments here have been vocally discumbobulated at the failure of the Beeb to broadcast the chosen Busch recording. I sent a strongly-worded e-Mail of complaint to the Sunday Morning website (that'll larn 'em!) for this oversight. For all my dislike of the scoops in the slow movement, I wanted to hear it in context - and to hear the rest of their performance.

Only two (I believe) Forumistas across the Boards have expressed severe (and, IMO, completely OTT) dislike of 78 transfers and remasterings - and they have at least listened to some of these, so not "prejudice" in the normal understanding of the word.

(I thought the rest of your post was very interesting, by the way.)

[silvestrione]

I do favour the Busch version over all others, as I made clear much earlier on. Just thought I was offering a little bit of 'getting the issue into perspective'. Didn't realise it ranked up there with Brexit and Trump. I will now leave you grumpy lot to get on with it....

(though, I'll add a PS, on my medium-quality equipment there is simply no comparison between the sound on the Belcea and the sound on the Busch)

[verismissimo]

I don't think that there are "so many" Forumistas who "lack the courage" to listen to pre-War recordings and voice their enthusiasm. The majority of comments here have been vocally discumbobulated at the failure of the Beeb to broadcast the chosen Busch recording. I sent a strongly-worded e-Mail of complaint to the Sunday Morning website (that'll larn 'em!) for this oversight. For all my dislike of the scoops in the slow movement, I wanted to hear it in context - and to hear the rest of their performance.

Only two (I believe) Forumistas across the Boards have expressed severe (and, IMO, completely OTT) dislike of 78 transfers and remasterings - and they have at least listened to some of these, so not "prejudice" in the normal understanding of the word.

(I thought the rest of your post was very interesting, by the way.)

In my experience, getting used to listening to old recordings requires a degree of open-mindedness, the 'courage' to deal with the unfamiliar. And open-mindedness is the opposite of 'prejudice'. There!

[underthecountertenor]

I do favour the Busch version over all others, as I made clear much earlier on. Just thought I was offering a little bit of 'getting the issue into perspective'. Didn't realise it ranked up there with Brexit and Trump. I will now leave you grumpy lot to get on with it....

(though, I'll add a PS, on my medium-quality equipment there is simply no comparison between the sound on the Belcea and the sound on the Busch)

To be clear, I wasn't the issue with Brexit and Trump. I'm just now squeamish about the 'get over it' phrase.
And of course I was in full agreement with you earlier about Busch and Takacs, and certainly don't want to fall out over this!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

In my experience, getting used to listening to old recordings requires a degree of open-mindedness, the 'courage' to deal with the unfamiliar. And open-mindedness is the opposite of 'prejudice'. There!

Well mebbe - but I still don't see why you think that there are (and I quote) "so many" who are such cowardly bigots on these Boards? Where are these multitudes? I'll have words with 'em!

[silvestrione]

To be clear, I wasn't the issue with Brexit and Trump. I'm just now squeamish about the 'get over it' phrase.
And of course I was in full agreement with you earlier about Busch and Takacs, and certainly don't want to fall out over this!

Yes, we all have some exposed nerves at the moment!

I'll 'get over it'!

[ahinton]

Yes, we all have some exposed nerves at the moment!

If we don't have exposed nerves, how are we going to respond credibly and meaningfully to the music that we discuss here - especially a work as moving as this particular Beethoven Quartet?!...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I confess - my nerves are jarred when I hear a blatant lie being told by the presenter of Sunday Morning. The version was not the BaL "library choice", and he knew it.

[Bryn]

I confess - my nerves are jarred when I hear a blatant lie being told by the presenter of Sunday Morning. The version was not the BaL "library choice", and he knew it.

From what I heard, the Busch was said not to have been bettered, but that is not the same thing as making it the library choice. That I took to be the Belcea.