BaL 14.01.17 - Tchaikovsky: Symphony no. 4 in F minor

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I notice a fairly short break between III & IV - and recall some conductors start IV with barely a beat between. Is this in the score? Or a matter of interpretation?

No attacca or segue marked in the score. (But I'm always a little disappointed when it doesn't happen.)

If the latter then it's an expression of the opinion that the fundamental 'story' of the piece is pessimistic: never mind folk songs, passing bands and a glass of wine, life is fate...! (My interpretation, too, on first hearing it live, aged 16!)

Not sure I follow this, kb - if there is a segue between the movements it makes it "pessimistic", but if there's a pause, it's (?more?) "optimistic"?

[Barbirollians]

IIRC, the Karajan recording chosen by RC was the 1966 DG version:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tchaikovsky-Symphony-No-4-Swa-x/dp/B0073Y12CQ

... also available in the big DG "Karajan: the 60s" box.

No he said 1960 on EMI .

[Barbirollians]

I am quite 'gutted' that RC didn't mention the quite incandescent Barbirolli / Hallé recording... 'Mercury' recording team, Manchester 'Free Trade Hall' ( wonderful acoustic...much better than the Bridgwater Hall)

Me too Barbirolli's 4-6 are all quite something as is the live 4 the Barbirolli Society put out recently .

[HighlandDougie]

Yes, most certainly the 1960. :)

Which in its recently remastered version (as referred to by Petrushka above) sounds as if it might have been recorded last week. The Kingsway Hall-like acoustics of the recording venue (Grünewaldkirche) make one regret that DG didn't use it for later recordings. And the orchestral playing!

[BBMmk2]

Which in its recently remastered version (as referred to by Petrushka above) sounds as if it might have been recorded last week. The Kingsway Hall-like acoustics of the recording venue (Grünewaldkirche) make one regret that DG didn't use it for later recordings. And the orchestral playing!

Indeed! Must give that a spin very soon!

[kernelbogey]

No attacca or segue marked in the score. (But I'm always a little disappointed when it doesn't happen.)


Not sure I follow this, kb - if there is a segue between the movements it makes it "pessimistic", but if there's a pause, it's (?more?) "optimistic"?

What I meant is that the segue is more of a dismissal of the Life goes on (Rob's phrase IIRC) interpretation of III and a conclusion in IV that affirms the mood of I. (I.e. almost saying No! (nicht diese Toene!).

Just my view, and interpretation, and maybe wholly personal.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

No he said 1960 on EMI .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

What I meant is that the segue is more of a dismissal of the Life goes on (Rob's phrase IIRC) interpretation of III and a conclusion in IV that affirms the mood of I. (I.e. almost saying No! (nicht diese Toene!).

Just my view, and interpretation, and maybe wholly personal.

Ah, thank you. I don't get this in the same way - partly because I'm not impressed by the "programme" behind the Symphony (which I find a bit naff); I prefer to hear the segue between the two movements as the Finale as a sort-of continuation of the orchestral timbres game in the Scherzo (which is my favourite movement). Pizz strings - woodwinds - brass&Timps - woodwinds - brass&Timps - pizz strings - interplay - pizz Strings - CRASH tutti (with cymbals)! The exhilaration of the opening of the Finale confirms the good spirits of the Scherzo - which is maintained until Lord Ruthven strides onto the stage with a diabolical leer and twiddling his moustaches, and spoils the party.

As you say - just my wholly personal preferred way of listening to a work that I have many reservations about.

[Alison]

Tony's post re Barbirolli is the first utterance to encourage a new purchase.

[kernelbogey]

Ah, thank you. I don't get this in the same way - partly because I'm not impressed by the "programme" behind the Symphony (which I find a bit naff); I prefer to hear the segue between the two movements as the Finale as a sort-of continuation of the orchestral timbres game in the Scherzo (which is my favourite movement). Pizz strings - woodwinds - brass&Timps - woodwinds - brass&Timps - pizz strings - interplay - pizz Strings - CRASH tutti (with cymbals)! The exhilaration of the opening of the Finale confirms the good spirits of the Scherzo - which is maintained until Lord Ruthven strides onto the stage with a diabolical leer and twiddling his moustaches, and spoils the party.

As you say - just my wholly personal preferred way of listening to a work that I have many reservations about.

Thank you Ferney - very interesting. I will experiment with listening to it next time from a perspective nearer your own.

I think my view may still be heavily influenced by my teenage tragic view of life, and Peter Tchaikovsky as an icon of its embodiment .

[rauschwerk]

...I'm not impressed by the "programme" behind the Symphony (which I find a bit naff)

David Brown (I think it was he) suggests that Tchaikovsky probably had no programme in mind when composing: it was only when Mme von Meck asked him what it was 'about' that he felt obliged to dream one up.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

David Brown (I think it was he) suggests that Tchaikovsky probably had no programme in mind when composing: it was only when Mme von Meck asked him what it was 'about' that he felt obliged to dream one up.

I like that idea; hope he's correct.

[Bryn]

I am quite 'gutted' that RC didn't mention the incandescent Barbirolli / Hallé recording... 'Mercury' recording team, Manchester 'Free Trade Hall' ( wonderful acoustic...much better than the Bridgwater Hall)

I have this in its HMV Classics manifestation from a digital remastering published in 1991. Does anyone here know of the most recent Barbirolli Society issue offers a significant sonic improvement?

[Nick Armstrong]

Aaaarrggggh!!!!!!

I'm terribly sorry, especially to pastoralguy - I've deleted instead of replying to his post!

You can undelete too, ferns. I just did it...

[Nick Armstrong]

It seemed to me that he was steering towards Mravinksy as his choice, and the final 'paragraph' choosing Fischer sounded almost like an afterthought.

Exactly my feeling.

I didn't like the hiccup Fischer inserted into the opening fanfare. I've no inclination at all to go with this 'final choice'.

Still don't feel the need for any other than the Mravinsky. It's one of those handful of recordings across the catalogue which seems to me to be in its own category of excellence.

I've ordered the Mravinsky ( WONDERFUL oboe, certainly not 'nervous' as Rob suggested)

Amazed you didn't have it, Tony! I think you'll have a blast And yes, I'd forgotten how entrancing that oboe solo is...