BaL 31.12.16 - Bruckner: Symphony no. 3 in D minor

[cloughie]

Ah, yes; we need to have it conducted by Andrew Preview...

Has he ever done any Bruckner?

[BBMmk2]

Don’t let those little passages get in the way of the pure Bruckner, lest you won’t enjoy Marthe’s amazing Bruckner-cosmos-thang.

I very much look forward to your Yannick Nézet-Séguin/Dresden review - may I take a little liberty and ask you to include a brief comparison with his Orchestre Métropolitain recording? I’d be interested in your views on that, as well.

Is there such a thing as 'pure Bruckner'?

[Beef Oven!]

Is there such a thing as 'pure Bruckner'?

Oh yes, it’s just scattered about a bit - needs piecing together

[ahinton]

May I suggest you start a thread on these matters? I fear this one is getting a bit disrupted again. Recently, the debate has been quite good.

I'd rather that you did so, although I don't believe that the tiny number of references to Marthé in a thread that has now attracted more than 300 posts has "disrupted" it to any degree beyond the possibility that mere mention of his work on/with/to/against Bruckner might be regarded by some as constituting by definition some kind of distraction...

Did you read the quote from GvdM on the abruckner site, by the way?

[ahinton]

No it isn't, as you said yourself in #290 above, that Marthe "added some minor connecting passages" (he goes much further too, changing dynamics and orchestration all over the place, v. the drumroll at the start of the scherzo, and he doesn't even use the most interesting rhythmical version there either etc etc) and in any case, spatchcocking sections of three versions together and changing movement order is of course re-composition of the most undeniably subjective kind. Marthe even claims elsewhere to have been dictated to by Bruckner himself, and his prose is very much a reflection of his conducting style in - loud vague and bombastic. His performance of Bruckner is all one-note, visionary, mystical, heavenstorming etc etc....

Bruckner is placed at Marthe's service I'm afraid; he does Bruckner's actual music no service at all, even if he's inspired by the love of it.

Agreed on all counts and I'd add only that Bruckner's been placed at Marthé's service by Marthé himself at a time long after he could ever have answered back...

If someone like him wants to write a piece based on or around material from a Bruckner symphony, that's fine, provided that the result is so described and accepted.

As to his claims to have received some kind of dictation from Bruckner; it's interesting to contrast its arrogant-sounding pomposity and self-aggrandisement with Anthony Payne's infinitely more modest "it felt as though I needed somehow to 'become' Elgar", the principal difference being to illustrate that he had to find a entrée into things that had never found their way onto paper during Elgar's lifetime and make the best possible deductions therefrom. Indeed, two more different accounts of what went on in the creation of the respective symphonies concerned could hardly be imagined, not least because Marthé seems to have sought to start from the premise of a need to rescue Bruckner from his "failures"...

[P. G. Tipps]

p. g. tipps

Has he ever done any Bruckner?

Previn is on record as saying he 'can't stand Bruckner' as 'he is always on his knees when composing'

I could never take the guy seriously after reading that and Morecambe & Wise clearly made a very wise choice for their comedy show!

No doubt a very accomplished musician though ...

[Alison]

All the great conductors seem to have blind spots so I would not want to hold the Bruckner thing against Mr Previn.

Must say I am a bit surprised by Hinters apparently encyclopaedic knowledge of the Marthe 'reload'!!

[Barbirollians]

The mono Barbirolli of the 1889 really is terrifically exciting - if you can lay your hands on a copy . I see RO described it as Barbirolli's fervour as carrying all before it and "Barbirolli's purposeful, passionate approach to Bruckner – very much ‘from the heart to the heart’ – first blazed into view with a live 1970 Hallé Eighth (BBC Legends, 10/01). This 1964 Bruckner Third is similar in spirit, though it is ‘as live’ rather than live.

[jayne lee wilson]

Bruckner Symphony No.3 (1873, ed. Nowak). Staatskapelle Dresden/Yannick Nézet-Séguin. Profil Hänssler CD 2016, rec. live 2008.


This latest Bruckner 3 isn’t quite what it might seem as it was recorded in 2008, several years before YNS’ Montreal Metropolitan reading in 2014. Which has significant musical consequences, as the later performance is quicker by almost 7 minutes…
But here I was for the third time with the Semperoper before me, drawn back by sheer beauty of sound to the Staatskapelle, whose undoubtedly glorious tone cannot disguise some uncertainty in the reading itself.
The orchestra sometimes seems the key player here. That burnished tone, the discipline instinctive - ingrained. But I couldn’t wholly shake the feeling in the 26’+ 1st movement, of a beautifully-played conductorless performance, such was the strange absence of flow or momentum, the first-group climaxes almost ponderous, their cadences lingered over and too drawn out; the lyrical phrases within them almost static. The third pause after the initial climax (before the restatement) was oddly overstretched, whereas the central development’s climax, initially monumentalised, was then accelerated. The figures running through the development felt repetitious, rather than cumulative. I wondered how often conductor or orchestra had played this work before, at least together; on a learning curve at a deeper interpretative level?
And yet, how well it was actually played, how wonderful it sounded in this acoustic. I so wanted to love it, and was relieved by the sharper focus into the recap. YNS was more of a shaping spirit here, just perceptibly urging the music on when it was most needed..
(Six years later with the Métropolitain, this all goes much better: despite being less than a minute shorter, there’s a finer, far-seeing grasp of the structure, tempi better related, an effortless fluency to the climaxes, transitions and lyrical interludes, never allowing a beautiful melodic vista to delay symphonic progress. A reading of great purity and cumulative power which serves the striking continuity of the original score wonderfully well. The Metropolitan band have a fresher more open sound than the Dresdeners (new-world youthful, as against centuries-deep Middle-European) but it is still a wonderful Brucknerian instrument. And the 24/96 sound doesn’t hurt, so transparent to those echt-Brucknerian string counterpoints.)

The 1873 Adagio, one of the most glorious of all Bruckner slow movements in its perfect 5-section arch-form, has never sounded more beautiful than here, a deep, dark, glowing introspection. Yet YNS still takes almost 3 minutes off it in his later Montreal recording, which really sings - endless melody indeed, again revealing the flow and continuity of the lovely original, and the Metro violins have a sublime sweetness of their own. He may have perceived a need for greater momentum - the longer view more tautly played - yet one can forgive a degree of hedonistic dwelling upon the gorgeous Dresden sonorities, a temptation for any conductor (or listener) to linger over.

The Dresden scherzo is fine. Edgy displaced accents made much of, an extra swing to those trumpet triplets, brasses revelling - swaggering - in their elongated chords across the jagged rhythms. Shame the trio didn’t swing more (cf. Venzago, Knappertsbusch). But, a surprise: that finer-grained sound reveals the Montreal scherzo as crunchier in the attack….(and no swaggering).
In the finale, Yannick is in his element, plainly understanding and believing in the larger very original structure and making the most of its extended coda which is virtually a second development (most of this, not to mention the sonata-rondo-type feel of the development itself is lost to the later revisions, which is why they make no sense, except perhaps as misdirected apology).
He really nails this one each time, the Staatskapelle gaining a little in live-performance tension on the Metropolitan’s swifter appreciation of its form. That abrupt final cadence as authoritative as any other.
(The Metro performance is described as live, but often gives this listener the impression of a carefully-prepared, beautifully-balanced studio recording.)

***

It is unusual for a conductor to have two of the same Bruckner Symphonies on disc so early, most especially this 1873 3rd. I think I see what YNS might be getting at in 2008, in his slower, exploratory, feeling-our-way-through-it 1st movement, the closing in on the finale’s cyclical returns. He has plenty of time to give us more Bruckner, perhaps more cogent - the COE might be an ideal instrument. But his Montreal Metropolitan recording certainly shows an interpretation-in-progress, eagle-eyed yet emphasising the lyrical and melodic…and is already one of the best 1873 3rds.

But is the Staatskapelle 3rd "recommended"? For any devoted Brucknerian - yes of course. It is despite some reservations one of the most beautifully played and recorded of the original score, and if you like your Bruckner slower and grander than I usually do you may well respond more unequivocally.

"How happy could I be with either, were t'other dear charmer away …” ?

Not quite. I’m drawn back to - Montreal…

[Beef Oven!]

All the great conductors seem to have blind spots so I would not want to hold the Bruckner thing against Mr Previn.

Indeed, that in itself is no reason to have a downer on him.

However, that’s not where Scotty is coming from. And if it’s true that he said what Scotty alleges, If I met Maestro Previn, I’d be tempted to give him a Chinese burn.

[Beef Oven!]

Bruckner Symphony No.3 (1873, ed. Nowak). Staatskapelle Dresden/Yannick Nézet-Séguin. Profil Hänssler CD 2016, rec. live 2008.

Very interesting review, thanks Jayne. As I said earlier, I was interested in your views on this, especially vis-à-vis Yannick’s Métropolitain recording. I like the Canadian performance very much indeed, but I don’t have the Dresden CD (although I suspect it’s just a matter of time before I do).

Yannick is still relatively young, so as you suggest there is plenty of time for more Bruckner from him. We are blessed.

[BBMmk2]

Very interesting review, thanks Jayne. As I said earlier, I was interested in your views on this, especially vis-à-vis Yannick’s Métropolitain recording. I like the Canadian performance very much indeed, but I don’t have the Dresden CD (although I suspect it’s just a matter of time before I do).

Yannick is still relatively young, so as you suggest there is plenty of time for more Bruckner from him. We are blessed.

One to watch out for say in 30 years time?

[P. G. Tipps]

Indeed, that in itself is no reason to have a downer on him.

However, that’s not where Scotty is coming from. And if it’s true that he said what Scotty alleges, If I met Maestro Previn, I’d be tempted to give him a Chinese burn.

Actually, Beefy, whether the story is true or not it has been around for some time and, afaik, never been denied by Previn. I also recall another story that when he arrived to take over as chief conductor of one his orchestras he immediately removed a bust of the composer which had been left in the office by the previous Bruckner-loving incumbent!

In all fairness to Andreas Ludwig Priwin I couldn't really see myself working happily in an office with Brahms constantly glaring down on me, either ... variety is the spice of life?

[Beef Oven!]

Actually, Beefy, whether the story is true or not it has been around for some time and, afaik, never been denied by Previn. I also recall another story that when he arrived to take over as chief conductor of one his orchestras he immediately removed a bust of the composer which had been left in the office by the previous Bruckner-loving incumbent!

In all fairness to Andreas Ludwig Priwin I couldn't really see myself working happily in an office with Brahms constantly glaring down on me, either ... variety is the spice of life?

I must say though, the Brahms orchestral penny finally dropped for me last year. But IMV, in this sort of stuff, it’s a toss-up between Wagner or Bruckner as to who’s the guvnor (not that it matters). I like Mahler, too

[Nick Armstrong]

Like others here I'm not a huge TS fan as I often find the breathless hyperbolic guff somewhat overpowering ...

However, I thought he was excellent (and mercifully calm-sounding) in his BAL debut this morning.

Normal Service was indeed Resumed, it seemed - with a little spare time today I decided to give him a chance, and indeed the intolerable guff of his conversations/interviews/trailers that's got him blackballed from Caliban Towers of late, appears to have fallen away with this scripted, scholarly exercise. The Service that one enjoyed some years back resurfaced. I haven't heard all the programme yet, but the exposition of the versions was very clear, and it was attractive to hear him argue one should forget all that and concentrate on the musical values of performances. I'll listen to the rest tomorrow.