BaL 31.12.16 - Bruckner: Symphony no. 3 in D minor

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's obviously your turn in the festive green dressing-gown, ferns!

... very drafty for Hurricane Barbara!

[Alison]

There is one with the Philharmonia Orchestra - only available used at premium prices these days - on BBC Legends. The cover isn't very helpful concerning which edition is being used, alas:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Symphonie...ton/B00005Q5LO

Basically 1877 with a couple of 1889 interpolations.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Basically 1877 with a couple of 1889 interpolations.

Thanks for this, Alison - but I thought that the 1889 revisions made cuts to the (already cut) 1877 version, so I'm not sure what "interpolations" there can be?

[Alison]

Thanks for this, Alison - but I thought that the 1889 revisions made cuts to the (already cut) 1877 version, so I'm not sure what "interpolations" there can be?

I'm pretty certain than the scherzo is truncated as per 1889 so perhaps interpolation not the best word. Can't lay my hands on the disc right now.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm pretty certain than the scherzo is truncated as per 1889 so perhaps interpolation not the best word. Can't lay my hands on the disc right now.

I'm fascinated by the idea of Hindemith conducting Bruckner (there's a 2CD release with the Seventh also conducted by Hindemith) - anyone heard it?

[Petrushka]

I'm pretty certain than the scherzo is truncated as per 1889 so perhaps interpolation not the best word. Can't lay my hands on the disc right now.

I have the von Matacic disc (and heard the 1983 broadcast) and it says 1877 version on the reverse.

[Petrushka]

I have quite a mixture of versions (in both senses) of the 3rd including:

Halle/Barbirolli
Philharmonia/von Matacic
LPO/Skrowaczeswski
VPO/Haitink
Gewandhaus Leipzig/Blomstedt
BRSO/Kubelik
NDR SO/Wand
Cologne Radio SO/Wand
BPO/Karajan
Chicago SO/Solti
Staatskapelle Dresden/Jochum
BRSO/Jochum

My favourite amongst these is the VPO/Haitink - a stunning performance of the 1877 version.

I hope Tom doesn't spend too much time over the versions saga otherwise there will be no time to play any music! Frankly, it's a mess with some conductors taking a 'pick 'n' mix approach which makes it something of a minefield to negotiate.

[Alison]

Agree with you here Pet. I'm not so familiar with 1873 so could do with a disc or two of that version.

[richardfinegold]

This is one Bruckner Symphony that I just have never developed a liking for. I prefer 1 and 2 to this, but mainly listen to 4 thru 9. 3 just sounds bombastic to me, without the compensating spirituality that offsets the awkward bits in the 'mature ' symphonies. I tried listening to Haitink/Amsterdam a few months ago. BH turns down the flatulence compared to Jochum or Karajan, but he can't save it for me either...

[Petrushka]

Agree with you here Pet. I'm not so familiar with 1873 so could do with a disc or two of that version.

Me too. The new Staatskapelle Dresden/Nezet Seguin CD of the 1873 version is on my Christmas wish list so Santa might oblige...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have the von Matacic disc (and heard the 1983 broadcast) and it says 1877 version on the reverse.

I hope Tom doesn't spend too much time over the versions saga otherwise there will be no time to play any music! Frankly, it's a mess with some conductors taking a 'pick 'n' mix approach which makes it something of a minefield to negotiate.

Well, it becomes a "mess" when conductors "do a Haas" and present something that isn't anything Bruckner eve imagined - but the three versions the composer himself knew of give different perspectives on the work, each worth hearing - even if the first version (the one Wagner saw and accepted) is by some way the best of the lot for me.

[Petrushka]

Well, it becomes a "mess" when conductors "do a Haas" and present something that isn't anything Bruckner eve imagined - but the three versions the composer himself knew of give different perspectives on the work, each worth hearing.

[Barbirollians]

Is it on a Friday ?

[jayne lee wilson]

I have the von Matacic disc (and heard the 1983 broadcast) and it says 1877 version on the reverse.

https://www.abruckner.com/recordings/Matacic/Lovro_von

..if the recording is as described above, i.e without the scherzo coda (not a truncated scherzo!) then it is as Berky lists - 1878 ed.Oeser, based on the first 1879 Stichvorlage printing.

It's very sad to see some listeners here still expressing impatience with versions or dismissing the various editions and recordings of the 3rd as "a mess" when so much of the meticulous and painstaking work done by scholars (for some years now - why keep ignoring it, or my links to it?) to survey and elucidate the situation is quickly accessible online. If you follow the links I gave in my post #6 above to the summaries by Griegel and Marquès (not for the first time this year...) you will soon get a much clearer picture for yourself. Then simply visit John F. Berky's authoritative abruckner.com site and study the discography to find out which editions conductors use, and which have been perceived making modifications of their own (not as many as you might think). Don't you think, loving and enjoying his music as we do, we owe Bruckner this much patience? Think of it as a labour of love.

When you click on a specific symphony on Berky's website, look at the top of the page and you'll see those same links to Marquès and Griegel. By the way, if you do notice an anomaly not documented in any given recording listed by John, do let him know. He'd be very pleased to hear from you!

https://www.abruckner.com/discography/symphonyno3indmino/

[Petrushka]

https://www.abruckner.com/recordings/Matacic/Lovro_von
..if the recording is as described above, i.e without the scherzo coda (not a truncated scherzo!) then it is as Berky lists - 1878 ed.Oeser, based on the first Stichvorlage printing.)


It's very sad to see some listeners here still expressing impatience with versions or dismissing the various editions and recordings of the 3rd as "a mess" when so much of the meticulous and painstaking work done by scholars (for some years now - why keep ignoring it, or my links to it?) to survey the situation is quickly accessible online. If you follow the links I gave in my post above to the summaries by Griegel and Marques (not for the first time this year...) you will soon get a much clearer picture for yourself. Then simply visit John F. Berky's authoritative abruckner.com site and study the discography to find out which editions conductors use, and which have been perceived making modifications of their own (not as many as you might think). Don't you think, loving and enjoying his music as we do, we owe Bruckner this much patience? Think of it as a labour of love.

When you click on a specific symphony on Berky's website, look at the top of the page and you'll see those same links to Marquès and Griegel. By the way, if you do notice an anomaly in any given recording not documented by John, do let him know. He'd be very pleased to hear from you!

https://www.abruckner.com/discograph...onyno3indmino/

Jayne, I'm certainly not 'dismissing various editions and recordings' as 'a mess' but rather the situation itself in respect of a Building a Library choice where the reviewer is going to have to spend valuable broadcast time in dealing with the issue. Many thanks for the links, I'll delve more deeply into them when I have more time (up at 6 in the morning so bedtime beckons, alas).