BaL 15.10.16 - Cabaret

[teamsaint]

I’ve never seriously differentiated between opera, operettas, musicals or anything similar.

me neither. I always thought I must be missing something.

Re FFs point about Bowie and Dylan, this touches on my (off topic) interest in how a( worthwhile) performing tradition for that music might emerge. But as you pointed out, ( or implied actually)jazz enthusiasts might have a lot to say on this subject.

Hard to believe that this was eight years ago.

https://www.barbican.org.uk/music/event-detail.asp?ID=7638

[french frank]

Lke adcarp I thought this BaL was well presented and a suitable topic for such treatment. Unlike adcarp and despite only having heard excerpts, I have no wish to hear it in full let alone have a recording of it. There are no musicals in my collection and thank you to BaL for confirming today that this genre should remain a closed book for me. Small mercies but my collection needs anything it can to relieve pressures on it - particularly space.

That also gets to the heart of it. Research that says 'Not this way' is still valuable.

Does the material lend itself to critical analysis? That should be the touchstone for Radio 3; not drawing lines between classical and non classical, operas and musicals. People who listened thought it interesting and well-presented. Perhaps people who thought it 'wasn't suitable' would give us an analysis of where this feature fell short?

On dover's point: I don't think it's particularly important if the 'songs' are detached from the narrative: they are the complete musical contribution to a single dramatic entity. If an opera features on BaL, it can't be covered in its entirety, and the exploration will focus on isolated music sections.

[Bryn]

That also gets to the heart of it. Research that says 'Not this way' is still valuable.

Does the material lend itself to critical analysis? That should be the touchstone for Radio 3; not drawing lines between classical and non classical, operas and musicals. People who listened thought it interesting and well-presented. Perhaps people who thought it 'wasn't suitable' would give us an analysis of where this feature fell short?

On dover's point: I don't think it's particularly important if the 'songs' are detached from the narrative: they are the complete musical contribution to a single dramatic entity. If an opera features on BaL, it can't be covered in its entirety, and the exploration will focus on isolated music sections.

And many opera recordings discussed in BaLs are shorn of their spoken dialogue, especially in older recordings.

[Beef Oven!]

And many opera recordings discussed in BaLs are shorn of their spoken dialogue, especially in older recordings.

Good observation.

[DracoM]

Agree with FF.

The film with Minelli, Gray and Yorke was brilliant, I loved it. but as a BAL?? I mean.........?!

[french frank]

but as a BAL?? I mean.........?!

Why did you think it didn't work specifically because it's a 'musical'?

[underthecountertenor]

Agree with FF.
:

So would you like to give us your analysis, as FF suggests?

[DracoM]

My unhappiness lay in the re-definition of the prog's genre: a comparative guide. 'We are not comparing like with like' - his very words at the end. So...?? Erm...?

1. This well-written, hugely well-informed illustrated lecture was simply NOT a comparative survey. It was a study of the history / 'development' of the show over the years since its inception. In his own words ' a move from one chapter to the next'. ie. the story of how the show evolved from the novel > stage show > film > further stage / recorded versions.

2. Much of it was playing very long extracts, without any or VERY little comparison at all.

3. There were in that history of development a large number of additions and amendments to the original score etc - are we back to Bruckner performing editions?? - that arriving at any kind of definitive text felt impossible to me. 'Supplementary rarities' was the phrase he used. In fact the sheer extent of these additions, cuts, adaptations etc made me wonder in the end what actually WAS 'the show' and how could any buyer arrive at a 'version' at all? Different languages?

3. The original show had a lot of dialogue - how much of it did we get in the 'review'?

And then, out of a hat, the final 'choice'......a FRENCH version???

I cannot fault the level of research, knowledge or affection behind the survey, but the catalogue of omissions, additions, re-orchestrations, performing languages he chronicled expertly was so great that in the end I could not see how any wannabe buyer could know what they were about to buy. He seemed almost to be suggesting by implication that in fact you needed to have EVERY available version.

[french frank]

That seems a reasonable explanation. But, I would still say that, ultimately, this was not any sort of permanent change in BaL - and not even an innovation. For people who dismissed the programme out of hand and deliberately didn't listen, they clearly missed an interesting feature: Where - exactly - would it fit on Radio 3? On Radio 2?

Isn't this just a storm in a teacup? Next week it's back to normal with … OH, NO!!! Mateo Flecha's ensaladas??? Sorry, but I'll give that a miss &c &c.

"Well-written, hugely well-informed, cannot fault the level of research, knowledge or affection behind the survey" - make the most of it. A lot of Radio 3 is still dross compared with that.

(But thanks for the detailed response!)

[BBMmk2]

Heard a short extract, this morning on Radio 3, I am glad I gave it a miss! Awful drivel!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Heard a short extract, this morning on Radio 3, I am glad I gave it a miss! Awful drivel!

... and would you like to remind us (yet again) what your opinion of Mozart and Kathleen Ferrier is, Bbm?

I like DracoM's summary of his criticisms of the BaL - as with many Musicals, the recordings differ in content so much that comparison often becomes irrelevant: closer to an Interpretations on Record (much missed) than a BaL. I already have the Dench/Sallis, and the film appears with sufficient frequency on telly; that takes care of any need I might have to listen to the work. As a summing up of the Music "drivel", is itself drivel.


But - as an anecdotal aside - I taught "The Musical, 1940 - 1980" for nearly ten years as part of an A/S Music course. Cabaret was one of the works I considered including for the students' scheme of study, but in the end I rejected it, and settled on WSS, Sweeney Todd, and Guys & Dolls. Enjoyable as Cabaret is, I didn't think it had as much Musical "substance" to reward ten weeks of the students' study (at 75mins per week, that's over twelve hours of analysis) in the way that the works I settled upon easily did (and which formed a neat set of "connections" - Bernstein having worked with Sondheim on WSS, and having praised G&D in one of his public lectures). Moreover, I didn't think that I'd be able to survive ten years of returning to the Music for ten weeks every year - not a problem with the chosen three (the Music of which I still find fresh and exciting) - nor with any of the "set" works for the other parts of the syllabus, I would add. I don't think that this is being "sniffy", in ardy's somewhat indelicate terms; just an honest assessment of Music that I nevertheless find highly attractive.



Incidentally, whilst I'm reminded of my former pedantic life - which Operas contain spoken dialogue? I could only think of Peter Grimes, The Electrification of the Soviet Union, and The Io Passion.

[vinteuil]

...



Incidentally, whilst I'm reminded of my former pedantic life - which Operas contain spoken dialogue? I could only think of Peter Grimes, The Electrification of the Soviet Union, and The Io Passion.

... you're excluding here things like die Zauberflote and similar?


well, I spose the letter scene in la Traviata?

PS I was surprized how much I enjoyed extracts from the very French Cabaret this morning...

[Pulcinella]

Incidentally, whilst I'm reminded of my former pedantic life - which Operas contain spoken dialogue? I could only think of Peter Grimes, The Electrification of the Soviet Union, and The Io Passion.

Ariadne auf Naxos (I think); Die Entführung?
I too found the comment a little odd (which I think is what you are implying).

PS: Having just seen vinteuil's response, I might be wrong about Entführung and have been thinking of Zauberflöte instead!

[Keraulophone]

Incidentally, whilst I'm reminded of my former pedantic life - which Operas contain spoken dialogue? I could only think of Peter Grimes, The Electrification of the Soviet Union, and The Io Passion.

Colin Davis's Dresden recording of The Magic Flute, originally on Philips, contained quite a lot of spoken dialogue, which seemed to me to interrupt the flow of the opera. They even employed actors to speak those parts, IIRC.

[Crossed with vinteuil's post.]

[BBMmk2]

... and would you like to remind us (yet again) what your opinion of Mozart and Kathleen Ferrier is, Bbm?

Also Maria Callas!