BaL 1.10.16 - Tallis: Spem in alium

[doversoul1]

What continues to baffle me is - as ardcarp and others have drawn attention to - that this piece lasts in total about 10-11 mins, yet we heard precious few direct comparisons of same pasages or explanatory analysis.
BUT
they do a whole Bruckner symphony on BAL - piece lasting say 50-60 mins, and we DO get direct comparisons of the same passage.

So why not on Spem?

For this particular occasion, more talk than music didn’t bother me too much but there have been times when it did but I wonder if this was something to do with the programme being an actual ‘show’ and someone along the way of the production thought it would be better if the presenter and the guest were talking rather than playing CDs. As I said up-thread, this was definitely a planned / scripted ‘chat’.

[Richard Tarleton]

Harry Christophers/The Sixteen are the one performance by 40 voices (as opposed to 700, or the King's Singers) that I can find on You Tube that actually shows the singers, rather than computer graphics or stills of cathedral interiors. Scope for a well-directed TV documentary, along the lines of those excellent ones by The Sixteen with Simon Russell Beale - like the one they did on Allegri's Miserere.

Correction - I hadn't looked properly - H Christophers has >100 singers on stage in this concert performance

[vinteuil]

the Huelgas/Paul Van Nevel ... remains my favourite among those I have heard. It's available either as a single disc or in the Sony Vivarte Vol. 1 box where in the accompanying booklet it is strangely attributed to Haydn.

... a vol 1 box? Lordy, I thought that that Sony box would be it. Spurred on by your reference I find that, indeed, a vol 2 is expected shortly.

On closer inspection I find I already have some forty of the sixty CDs included therein - it wd be hard to justify the purchase...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01FNAHZFY

[Bryn]

... I find I already have some forty of the sixty CDs included therein - it wd be hard to justify the purchase...

Same here. Vol. 1 was just about justifiable, but Vol. 2 is a quite different matter.

[Nick Armstrong]

Couldn't he [AMcG] pop off for a pop up coffee?

This isn't my rant yet.

I don't wish to micturate on anyone's French fried potatoes, but despite being a Tallis lover, Spem has always been the exception, I've never enjoyed it at all. I have the Cleobury/KCC/Argo CD but always skip the work in favour of the other items on the recording.

So I listened to this BAL wondering if it was because I've never heard the 'right' recording (I noted that Heighes also in effect skipped the Argo King's recording).

It was interesting to hear how almost all the selected (albeit very brief) extracts discussed confirmed my lack of affinity with the piece - the sole exception being the Hollingworth / i Fagiolini performance which I am tempted to investigate further.

Ironic that Spem is very much in the shadow of the Striggio as far as branding is concerned, tucked away as track 18 on this disc:

[BBMmk2]

I have the aforementioned recording, Cali. strongly recommend you get it! :)

[ardcarp]

Cali, I don't think it's possible to appreciate Spem (or the Striggio Ecce Beatam for that matter) in anything like its full splendour on a CD...even a posh surround-sound one. There is nothing like hearing it in the flesh with the 8 good choirs disposed around a large reverberant building. Although I've sung it far more times than I've experienced it as an audience member, I have been blown away (almost literally) on occasions. A glance at the technical side of Tallis's imitative writing in Spem shows him to be quite challenged when more than, say, 10 parts are on the go at the same time, and he relies heavily on tonal centres and rhythmic tricks. Heard through speakers that's all you hear, and I agree it doesn't match up to, say, Videte Miraculum, Sancte Deus or (especially) The Lamentations. Maybe this just wasn't a good choice for Record Review?

[Nick Armstrong]

Cali, I don't think it's possible to appreciate Spem (or the Striggio Ecce Beatam for that matter) in anything like its full splendour on a CD...even a posh surround-sound one. There is nothing like hearing it in the flesh with the 8 good choirs disposed around a large reverberant building.

Yes indeed, ardcarp. I've never heard it live, and was thinking just that: not one for home listening...

[doversoul1]

Cali, I don't think it's possible to appreciate Spem (or the Striggio Ecce Beatam for that matter) in anything like its full splendour on a CD...even a posh surround-sound one. There is nothing like hearing it in the flesh with the 8 good choirs disposed around a large reverberant building. Although I've sung it far more times than I've experienced it as an audience member, I have been blown away (almost literally) on occasions. A glance at the technical side of Tallis's imitative writing in Spem shows him to be quite challenged when more than, say, 10 parts are on the go at the same time, and he relies heavily on tonal centres and rhythmic tricks. Heard through speakers that's all you hear, and I agree it doesn't match up to, say, Videte Miraculum, Sancte Deus or (especially) The Lamentations. Maybe this just wasn't a good choice for Record Review?

But isn’t the whole point of record review is to demonstrate / discuss how well all that is captured and reproduced?

[DracoM]

Cali, I don't think it's possible to appreciate Spem (or the Striggio Ecce Beatam for that matter) in anything like its full splendour on a CD...even a posh surround-sound one. There is nothing like hearing it in the flesh with the 8 good choirs disposed around a large reverberant building. Although I've sung it far more times than I've experienced it as an audience member, I have been blown away (almost literally) on occasions. A glance at the technical side of Tallis's imitative writing in Spem shows him to be quite challenged when more than, say, 10 parts are on the go at the same time, and he relies heavily on tonal centres and rhythmic tricks. Heard through speakers that's all you hear, and I agree it doesn't match up to, say, Videte Miraculum, Sancte Deus or (especially) The Lamentations. Maybe this just wasn't a good choice for Record Review?

Once heard Spem in Regensburg Cathedral - on same bill as Victoria Requiem a 6.

[Old Grumpy]

Yes indeed, ardcarp. I've never heard it live, and was thinking just that: not one for home listening...

It's fine at home - but obviously not as good as live in a suitable space.

This is as near as I have got to hearing it live, and was an interesting experience. The recording was played on a loop, with a suitable pause between each rendition. It was fascinating to wander round the speakers and hear each part in turn. There was only one place in the room where all the speakers could be heard at equal volume, and this was not in the middle as might be expected.

OG

[Old Grumpy]

I have the aforementioned recording, Cali. strongly recommend you get it! :)

And there is an informative DVD as part of the package.

OG

[ardcarp]

But isn’t the whole point of record review... to demonstrate / discuss how well all that is captured and reproduced?

It's certainly one criterion of Record Review, though generally aspects of the performance/performers seem to preoccupy presenters more.
My point was that Spem, because of its spatial design, is far less appreciable for 'home listening'' (as Cali succinctly puts it) than other musical genres. Maybe also I was trying, charitably, to think of reasons why this particular BAL was so disappointing. But.....

[Gabriel Jackson]

My point was that Spem, because of its spatial design, is far less appreciable for 'home listening'' (as Cali succinctly puts it) than other musical genres.

But what is the spatial design of Spem? Yes, some people perform it with the eight choirs surrounding the audience (fairly unsatisfactory in my view) and, yes, it may have been first performed in an octagonal space; but it may not have been, and plenty of people (the Tallis Scholars included) perform it with the eight choirs more or less in a straight line in front of the audience, or a shallow semicircle. The movement from left to right (or, rather, from choir one to eight) and all the other 'spatial' effects in the piece are perfectly realisable and perceptible if done in that way, and those things can be as accurately reproduced (or as accurately as anything can) in a recording.

[doversoul1]

It's certainly one criterion of Record Review, though generally aspects of the performance/performers seem to preoccupy presenters more.
My point was that Spem, because of its spatial design, is far less appreciable for 'home listening'' (as Cali succinctly puts it) than other musical genres. Maybe also I was trying, charitably, to think of reasons why this particular BAL was so disappointing. But.....

I assumed that the 'aspects of the performance/performers' as we hear on the recording was the point. Also, is this work such an exception when it comes to the matter of live performance vs. home listening?

Incidentally, do you think you could include the name (the author) of the post you are quoting (it didn’t matter in this case but it would make life simpler in general if you could)?