BaL 1.10.16 - Tallis: Spem in alium

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

My own conjecture is that there was no concept of a fixed pitch in our modern sense, and that pragmatism (e.g. range of voices available) ruled the day. !

On that basis, vocal pitch nowadays would be very low indeed. But I digress.

[Nevilevelis]

Well done for your investigations NevilV. However, I hope SH is not going to be too prescriptive about pitch in the Review. No-one has the faintest idea what pitch would have prevailed in Tudor times. There has been much research into historical pitch, and whilst some idea can be got for Baroque and Classical times (existing instruments, organ pipes etc), conjecture is the only weapon for the Renaissance or earlier. My own conjecture is that there was no concept of a fixed pitch in our modern sense, and that pragmatism (e.g. range of voices available) ruled the day. The Tallis Lamentations are an excellent example. They work extremely well at a low pitch (i.e. altos on top) as the bottom three parts have a deep sonority, but IMO they are equally valid at a higher pitch with sops on top when you want to perform it with today's 'normal' chamber choir. The old Percy Buck edition is fine, IMVO, and can be used either up, down or as printed!

I think you may be misreading my intentions, or perhaps (typically) I am reading a sort of head prefect put-down in your reply... I HOPE NOT!!

I am not making any claims about pitch and authenticity, I just thought some, (not you, perhaps) may find it interesting. It certainly interests me, and some of the decisions about choice of pitch in our time are based on recent traditions, which are actually informed by research, and others just go with the flow - what listeners expect, perhaps. I am constantly dismayed that some conductors in choosing a pitch (usually a high one by transposition or not) cannot hear the tension it causes in voices. (The same goes for tempo.) Yes, every group is different, but hard, squeezed and tight in singing is unpleasant to my ear.

I recall really excellent contributions about pitch from one of our number here a little while ago in a discussion about Eton Choir Book repertoire, and I would be very happy to hear them again.

I would also be happy to hear this addressed in the review. We'll see!

[ardcarp]

Certainly no 'put-down' intended from me! Sorry if you read it that way. Pragmatism rules for me, and if, as you say, dogma about pitch causes an uncomfortable experience for performers and/or listeners, then I agree wholeheartedly.

Indeed it was an interesting discussion about Eton Choir book and the intended pitch of 'English discant' style.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm one of those people who cannot tell what pitch is being used, unless there's benchmark.

That said, I do seem to find most works in B flat rather uninteresting. I cannot explain why.

[vinteuil]

I'm one of those people who cannot tell what pitch is being used, unless there's benchmark.

That said, I do seem to find most works in B flat rather uninteresting. I cannot explain why.

... in Bb at various different pitches, or just Bb at A=440?

[Richard Tarleton]

No-one has the faintest idea what pitch would have prevailed in Tudor times. There has been much research into historical pitch, and whilst some idea can be got for Baroque and Classical times (existing instruments, organ pipes etc), conjecture is the only weapon for the Renaissance or earlier.

The pitch of the vihuela varied; Luis Milán (c.1500-1561) said the top string should be tuned "as high as it will go"

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... in Bb at various different pitches, or just Bb at A=440?

I really don't know. It's just that works such as Beethoven 4/ PC 2/ Hammerklavier Sonata, Mozart K.595 and his B flat sonatas, etc. do nothing for me.

It's quite irrational.

But Brahms PC 2 is an exception.

[ardcarp]

The pitch of the vihuela varied; Luis Milán (c.1500-1561) said the top string should be tuned "as high as it will go"

Love it!

[underthecountertenor]

I'm one of those people who cannot tell what pitch is being used, unless there's benchmark.

That said, I do seem to find most works in B flat rather uninteresting. I cannot explain why.

What's your favourite key? (Going WAY off topic here, but hey).

[Barbirollians]

I am sticking with the Tallis Scholars on what we had heard so far though I loved the Willcocks excerpts.

[Pulcinella]

Another dratted twofer!
Struggling hard not to reach for the off button.
I do wish AMcG would not try to steer the conversation the way he does.

[doversoul1]

Another dratted twofer!
Struggling hard not to reach for the off button.
I do wish AMcG would not try to steer the conversation the way he does.

Yes, Andrew is taking up a lot of time despite the fact that Simon H is usually brimming with things to say and can perfectly happy to fill the entire slot. However, I imagine this is a reasonably well planned ‘chat’. It doesn’t sound as if SH is being interrupted (not very much). As they are being visually exposed to the world, Andrew can’t just sit back and let his guest talk the whole time. I expect the presenters are all looking forward to getting back to the sanity of the studio. I do as a listener.

[Pulcinella]

Yes, Andrew is taking up a lot of time despite the fact that Simon H is usually brimming with things to say and can perfectly happy to fill the entire slot. However, I imagine this is a reasonably well planned ‘chat’. It doesn’t sound as if SH is being interrupted (not very much). As they are being visually exposed to the world, Andrew can’t just sit back and let his guest talk the whole time. I expect the presenters are all looking forward to getting back to the sanity of the studio. I do as a listener.

I do/did wonder how much is 'scripted', and agree that it sounds well planned: SH does not seem to have been thrown by any of the comments (but as you say could have made the same points himself). I'm not sure that visual exposure in itself should mean that Andrew has to contribute.

[Barbirollians]

Like the Hollingworth version but the Tallis continue to sound that less is more to me .

Not keen on the Taverner Choir recording though the new Cardinal's Musick sounds impressive .

[mikealdren]

Another dratted twofer!
Struggling hard not to reach for the off button.
I do wish AMcG would not try to steer the conversation the way he does.

Is there some way in which the live Twofer could be cheaper than the prerecorded alternative perhaps??? I did switch off this time.