BaL 18.06.16 - Mahler: Symphony no. 5

**Eine Alpensinfonie** · 10-06-16, 13:17

Sorry, but it appears to be a twofer.

**ferneyhoughgeliebte** · 10-06-16, 14:04

Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post

Sorry, but it appears to be a twofer.

Bad news, indeed - but

for your work providing the list, Alpie.

**Bryn** · 10-06-16, 14:19

Are there not two LPO/Tennstedts, one studio and one 'live'?

**Petrushka** · 10-06-16, 14:58

Originally posted by Bryn View Post

Are there not two LPO/Tennstedts, one studio and one 'live'?

Yes there are but there should actually be TWO live Tennstedt versions. I was present at the live LPO performance (also on DVD) on Dec 13 1988. The other one is with the NDR Symphony Orchestra and dates from 1980. Is the Concertgebouw/Tennstedt only available on CD in one of the RCO Anthology boxes? I have another live one with KT and the NYPO in the orchestras Mahler Broadcasts set.

My very first Mahler 5 was NYPO/Bruno Walter in the 1947 recording now in a Sony box. It always did sound good (mono only of course) but in its latest incarnation sounds really very good indeed. Few allowances need be made. The Adagietto in Walter's hands sounds much more like the love song that it is as opposed to the funereal post-Death in Venice dirge we seem to get nowadays.

There are some outstanding versions out there including the celebrated VPO/Bernstein (I was present at their London Prom a day or two later) and I can forgive Lenny's indulgent way with the Adagietto for the sake of the glorious playing from the Vienna Philharmonic. Richard Osborne was never convinced about Karajan's recording, calling it 'an expert run-through', if I remember correctly, but it's one of my favourites and gets frequent outings in the Petrushka listening room.

I heard Abbado live in Mahler 5 more times than I heard anything else from him (including one in Venice!) and both the BPO recording as well as the Lucerne DVD are wonderful.

Most over-rated version? Barbirolli and the New Philharmonia in my view. I've never really got on with it and the Finale is way too slow.

Most under-rated version? Riccardo Chailly and the Royal Concertgebouw for me. Chailly gets pretty well everything right and is accorded Decca's finest sound. Definitely one to be respected.

Final choice? I wouldn't want to be without the live Tennstedt recordings, Karajan or Haitink's live Christmas Day 1986 Amsterdam account (which may in any case be subject to availability issues), VPO/Bernstein or RCO/Chailly. It's damned difficult but if forced at gunpoint with the finger ready to press the trigger I'd shout 'Karajan'. Or perhaps 'Abbado'!

**Eine Alpensinfonie** · 10-06-16, 15:34

Originally posted by Bryn View Post

Are there not two LPO/Tennstedts, one studio and one 'live'?

List duly amended.

**ferneyhoughgeliebte** · 10-06-16, 15:52

The timings of the Adagietto, mentioned by Pet, is worth a study in itself. Walter at 7:35 is the second swiftest ("beaten" to the finishing post by Scwarz at 7:32) - nearly half the speed of the slowest I've found, Haitink with the BPO who take 13:55 - and that's three-and-a-half minutes longer than his first recording! (There are electronically-adjusted versions available which last longer, but I've ignored those.) Karajan at 11:53 is in the slower "camp" (around the same timing as the Tennstedt studio recording - he was a minute faster with the NDR Orchestra, and 30secs faster Live with the LPO). Rosbaud took 8:53, a second faster than Norrington. Abbado changed his reading over the years - 12:02 with the CSO; 9:00 with the BPO about ten years later. Lennie was more consistent: 11:18 in New York, 11:18 with the VPO - and Solti was also consistent: 9:58 in Chicago, 9:58 with the Tonhalle Orchestra.

Of course, bare second-counting doesn't tell the full story: there's the important point of whether the conductor can get the orchestra to create a sense of forward motion (as opposed to dwelling on each moment as it happens) and it's not quite as simple as "nowadays" and "thenadays" - even so, the range of interpretations of how long an Adagietto should last is quite remarkable.

**visualnickmos** · 10-06-16, 16:12

Another great list from EA. Quite marathon, this BaL....

Bernstein is pretty good...

**BBMmk2** · 10-06-16, 16:53

Oh yes! From that opening trumpet playing to the very last note of this work, has you wanting more and more!

**mikealdren** · 10-06-16, 17:28

Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post

The timings of the Adagietto, mentioned by Pet, is worth a study in itself. Walter at 7:35 is the second swiftest ("beaten" to the finishing post by Scwarz at 7:32) - nearly half the speed of the slowest I've found, Haitink with the BPO who take 13:55 - and that's three-and-a-half minutes longer than his first recording! (There are electronically-adjusted versions available which last longer, but I've ignored those.) Karajan at 11:53 is in the slower "camp" (around the same timing as the Tennstedt studio recording - he was a minute faster with the NDR Orchestra, and 30secs faster Live with the LPO). Rosbaud took 8:53, a second faster than Norrington. Abbado changed his reading over the years - 12:02 with the CSO; 9:00 with the BPO about ten years later. Lennie was more consistent: 11:18 in New York, 11:18 with the VPO - and Solti was also consistent: 9:58 in Chicago, 9:58 with the Tonhalle Orchestra.

Of course, bare second-counting doesn't tell the full story: there's the important point of whether the conductor can get the orchestra to create a sense of forward motion (as opposed to dwelling on each moment as it happens) and it's not quite as simple as "nowadays" and "thenadays" - even so, the range of interpretations of how long an Adagietto should last is quite remarkable.

I think performances were typically quicker until the early 1960s when I have heard Bernstein was blamed for the move to much slower speeds although I'll happily accept that it was death in Venice. Mahler's acolytes, Mengelberg and Walter were certainly among the faster performers and the idea that it is a love song rather than a funeral march fits better with the more flowing speed.

Just to add another thought, isn't it a shame that Mahler died before he could record it. Look at what his contemporaries, Strauss and Elgar left us and they were not renowned as great conductors, furthermore, from the extremely detailed markings, Mahler was obviously very concerned about EXACTLY how his works should be performed.

**Nick Armstrong** · 10-06-16, 18:45

For French speakers (well, listening is all you need to do), the France-Musique survey of Mahler 5 in January 2014 is available until October this year to listen to online or download as a podcast:

Symphonie nº 5 en do # mineur de Gustav Mahler

http://www.francemusique.fr/emission/la-tribune-des-critiques-de-disques/2013-2014/symphonie-no-5-en-do-mineur-de-gustav-mahler-01-19-2014-00-00

Notre tribune dominicale aura aujourd’hui un petit air de Mort à Venise, Thierry Beauvert et ses critiques s'intéressent à la 5e symphonie de Gustav Mahler.

The chosen version was (convincingly, I thought), Kubelik - with Dudamel and the Venezuelan youngsters second (surprisingly, I thought). I knew neither version - but preferred them to Fischer, Inbal, Solti/Chicago and ... Bernstein, the latter long one of my favourites, but which came across surprisingly underwhelmingly from isolated extracts.

Anyway, I acquired Kubelik and Dudamel on the strength of it. I've played the Dudamel more often - it is exceptionally good. I also recently acquired the Karajan, having been struck by its qualities listening to an R3 morning broadcast. I learnt the piece from the Barbirolli and I think it still has a particular magic; as has the 13.12.88 live Tennstedt mentioned by Pet which like him I attended. (I was never wholly convinced by Abbado's way with this symphony, for some reason).

**Nick Armstrong** · 10-06-16, 18:56

Originally posted by mikealdren View Post

Just to add another thought, isn't it a shame that Mahler died before he could record it ... from the extremely detailed markings, Mahler was obviously very concerned about EXACTLY how his works should be performed.

The closest one can get is Mahler's own performance in November 1905 of the first movement on a Welte-Mignon piano roll - it starts at 14:15 here:

Imperfect, incomplete... but I find it moving and compelling.

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/mahler-plays-mahler

**BBMmk2** · 11-06-16, 07:23

I have the cd for this! As you say Cali, moving and compelling. I don't think there is a recording of his voice, at all, is there?

**richardfinegold** · 11-06-16, 12:22

After that Herculean effort by Alpie I feel like an ingrate mentioning an unlisted version, but the 5th that I have enjoyed the most over the past year is one that is available in multiple formats from Pristine Audio, Horenstein / Berlin a 1961 Concert recording. If you otherwise enjoy Horenstein Mahler you will be rewarded here.
Otherwise I like the Waler from 1947 and the Bernstein/VPO. For sonics coupled with very good performances Abbado/Lucerne and Karajan\BPO, both on Blu Ray, or MTT/SFSO on SACD. The latter has the longest Adagietto in my collection. I prefer Horenstein's clear eyed traversal there, but MTT wallow sounds luxurious .
The most intriguing for me on Alpie's list was Paray/DSO. As I generally don't do downloads, can someone direct me to the relevant site?

**Pulcinella** · 11-06-16, 12:45

Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post

The most intriguing for me on Alpie's list was Paray/DSO. As I generally don't do downloads, can someone direct me to the relevant site?

Richard
You could try here

Classical recordings - Search: Mahler Paray (no results) | Presto Music

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/advsearch.php?composer=Mahler&work=&performer=Paray&medium=all&label=&cat=

but I don't know if it will be 'available' in your country.

BaL 18.06.16 - Mahler: Symphony no. 5

BaL 18.06.16 - Mahler: Symphony no. 5

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