BaL 4.06.16 - Tchaikovsky: Symphony no. 6 in B minor, Op. 74, ‘Pathétique’

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've just ordered the Bolshoi Theatre Orchestra/Alexander Melik-Pashayev recording - the first version I ever had, on a Saga LP. I wore it out, and I'm wondered what I'll think of it so many years later.

[ardcarp]

I used to love that programme [100 best tunes]. Alan Keith may have selected a Breakfast/Essential Classics repertoire, but there was no pretence, no trying to be cool - just a genuine love of the music.

Do you also remember Eric Robinson presenting (and conducting) Music for You on TV? I think he said 'Chickoffsky' too!

[Barbirollians]

I wasn't disappointed...in fact Marina started off with some examples of performance styles though admittedly not post 1986. She did say that it was a vast ocean and that she could only dip her toe in the water; and given that fact, she gave a very clear and extraordinarily well-presented idea of what she was looking for. She chose HvK (1971) without any regard to his fame or infamy as being her ideal performance. It was surprising she was not wowed (waa-waa-ed?)) by the brash brass of Mravinsky and Leningrad. Maybe it was trombone tuning that put her off?

Was this Marina's first solo BAL? If so she got the hang of it pretty well, IMO.

No she did Swan Lake - see above .

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've just ordered the Bolshoi Theatre Orchestra/Alexander Melik-Pashayev recording - the first version I ever had, on a Saga LP. I wore it out, and I'm wondered what I'll think of it so many years later.

I've just found a very old photo. As it was my favourite record, my dad took a photo of me with it. This is a cropped version.

[Dave2002]

Mention was made of the odd technique - I think in the last movement, in which the first and second violins play what almost look like a set of random notes, yet put together a theme emerges. Was Tchaikovsky the first to think of this, or has this composing technique been known for centuries. If so, who else has used it?

Overall I really liked this BAL, though I don't necessarily agree with the final result. I think I do have the particular recommended version in my EMI Karajan box. I'll check it out.

Mravinsky's account could be worth following up - I have his 4th on LP (DG) and the 5th on a Russian CD with a very noisy audience.

I'm not sure which of Bernstein's versions is the one which takes so long, but I've certainly heard one or two by him which I really enjoyed.

Not sure about Celibidache though. He was another conductor I never quite managed to hear. We were once stranded in Bucharest in the snow, and the airport was closed, so we tried to get into a concert by C, but that turned out to be impossible, or at least for us. We tried waving various amounts of money around in the hope that someone would sell us tickets, but it didn't work, and according to the officials the concert was completely sold out. He may have conducted in London again after that, but I never managed to get to here him.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Mention was made of the odd technique - I think in the last movement, in which the first and second violins play what almost look like a set of random notes, yet put together a theme emerges. Was Tchaikovsky the first to think of this, or has this composing technique been known for centuries. If so, who else has used it?

The mediaeval technique of Hocketing is an earlier type of this - and later Schoenberg and (especially) Webern used a version of the idea instrumentally and called it Klangfarbenmelodie ("melody of timbre" "coloured melody"). Whether Tchicky knew the earlier technique is another matter. I have to admit that I've never heard the effect in concert or on record - and when the melody returns later in the movement, it's scored conventionally.

I'm not sure which of Bernstein's versions is the one which takes so long, but I've certainly heard one or two by him which I really enjoyed.

The NYPO version on Deutsche Gramophon from 1986.

[Petrushka]

Is the technique that Dave mentions where the first violins and second violins play alternate notes of the theme so that he melody emerges as if from left and right? Of course the effect is completely lost if all the fiddles are bunched up on the left of the stage. I'd like to hear this done with the violins playing on their own and separated so we can see what Chikovsky is doing.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Is the technique that Dave mentions where the first violins and second violins play alternate notes of the theme so that he melody emerges as if from left and right? Of course the effect is completely lost if all the fiddles are bunched up on the left of the stage. I'd like to hear this done with the violins playing on their own and separated so we can see what Chikovsky is doing.

I've never heard it played in this way. It might make me seasick. That could be reason why some conductors edited the parts to keep the lines "normal" (as happens when the theme returns later).

Structurally, the finale is about as simple as it gets - ABAB, with no development section or coda.

[LeMartinPecheur]

I've never heard it played in this way. It might make me seasick. That could be reason why some conductors edited the parts to keep the lines "normal" (as happens when the theme returns later).

Petrushka/ EA: IIRC Pet has it exactly right for Tchaik's scoring early in the movement (1st and 2nds playing alternate notes of the theme with subordinate harmony notes in between, as the BaL lady described it). This was presumably intended to create a slight disruption to the continuity of the theme, as well as a left/right stereo effect live in concert with divided violins).

But later in the movement the theme comes back not split in this way (not sure whether it's actually unison 1sts and 2nds or whether the 1sts get the tune and the 2nds the harmony - can't be bothered to dig my score out). A small but precise detail in Tchaik's scoring, really demanding split 1st and 2nds.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But later in the movement the theme comes back not split in this way (not sure whether it's actually unison 1sts and 2nds or whether the 1sts get the tune and the 2nds the harmony - can't be bothered to dig my score out)..

I'm the forum swot and the 2nds are playing the harmony line.

[cloughie]

I've just found a very old photo. As it was my favourite record, my dad took a photo of me with it. This is a cropped version.

Which bits are cut?

[Bryn]

O.k., so in which recordings are the 1st and 2nd violins divided left and right? I don't have the Mravinsky recording cited, so am unable to determine whether or not his violin sections were placed antiphonally.

[Beef Oven!]

Which bits are cut?

Two of his legs can’t be seen.

[rauschwerk]

Mention was made of the odd technique - I think in the last movement, in which the first and second violins play what almost look like a set of random notes, yet put together a theme emerges. Was Tchaikovsky the first to think of this, or has this composing technique been known for centuries. If so, who else has used it?

The most convincing explanation known to me is that this is 'eye music': the first and second violin lines repeatedly cross, symbolising the cross to which the composer imagined himself to be nailed on account of his passion for his nephew 'Bob' Davidoff, to whom the symphony is dedicated. It certainly isn't a hocket, which derives from the French word for hiccup. I don't believe it was intended to be audible.

[seabright]

O.k., so in which recordings are the 1st and 2nd violins divided left and right? I don't have the Mravinsky recording cited, so am unable to determine whether or not his violin sections were placed antiphonally.

Is there any way of observing the violinists' fingerings in the various You Tube clips to determine whether they're playing Tchaikovsky's actual scoring? Here for example is HvK himself in one such clip ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtLq8wj0p80