BaL 19.03.16 - Beethoven: Piano Sonata no. 8 in C minor Op. 13 "Sonata Pathétique"

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Are they the same as the ones on the Philips set of the piano concertos, which contain a fair number of the 'main' sonatas - including Pathetique?

Just to be clear - the PCs are with the BBC SO Colin Davis...... PCs 1-4 and the LSO Colin Davis PC no.5

No - Kovacevich recorded the complete Sonatas for EMI in the late 1990s/early 2000s.

[Bryn]

No - Kovacevich recorded the complete Sonatas for EMI in the late 1990s/early 2000s.

Which, strangely, is currently out of the Warner catalogue. Let's hope they wake up and re-issue it soon.

[Barbirollians]

Which, strangely, is currently out of the Warner catalogue. Let's hope they wake up and re-issue it soon.

A worthy winner but I did not hear all of it - any mention of Solomon's extremely moving recording ?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Nah! that's just more wishful thinking. He would, of course, have preferred a Clavia Nord Stage 2 HA88 Synthesizer .

Is desperation creeping in here?. Most composers welcomed the development and improvement of instrument design - Beethoven and Luszt being good examples. Bach was different in this respect.

[Bryn]

... [COLOR]I got a lot out of this BAL. Especially interested by the varying views about where the first movement repeat should start. I found both convincing.
...

Me too. I note that Denis Matthews, in his BBC Music Guide, took a similar position to that of Doc. Walker. It is strange indeed that Beethoven's omission of initial repeat marks left the start point of the repeat open. However, for me, the overall structure of the opening movement does tend to mitigate in favour of repeating the Grave. I'd be interested to read more of Barry Cooper's argument against it, and indeed to read the views of others here.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Me too. I note that Denis Matthews, in his BBC Music Guide, took a similar position to that of Doc. Walker. It is strange indeed that Beethoven's omission of initial repeat marks left the start point of the repeat open. However, for me, the overall structure of the opening movement does tend to mitigate in favour of repeating the Grave. I'd be interested to read more of Barry Cooper's argument against it, and indeed to read the views of others here.

Either way seems to work, but this might be worth a read.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Is desperation creeping in here?

No need if it is, Alpie - you can still enjoy listening to Music in the wrong way without despairing about it

Most composers welcomed the development and improvement of instrument design - Beethoven and Luszt being good examples.

One of the Seven Deadly Sings?

You are quite correct, of course - which is why it is as possible to conjecture that Beethoven would have preferred to compose for a synthesizer had one been available to him than for the much less "developed and improved" twentieth century Steinway grand piano. And he would have written quite marvellous things for it - and for saxophone, electric guitars, and "tape" recorders, too.

But they weren't available to him, so he didn't. So instead, he had to make do with those "inferior" instruments - writing works which sound so much better when played on them than they do on the later versions.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

One of the Seven Deadly Sings?

[Bryn]

Either way seems to work, but this might be worth a read.

Been there, done that, before I posted. More difficult to find Cooper's specific argument form the horses mouth, as it were, on line. Plus, I would be even more interested to read the views of others here.

[kea]

Me too. I note that Denis Matthews, in his BBC Music Guide, took a similar position to that of Doc. Walker. It is strange indeed that Beethoven's omission of initial repeat marks left the start point of the repeat open. However, for me, the overall structure of the opening movement does tend to mitigate in favour of repeating the Grave. I'd be interested to read more of Barry Cooper's argument against it, and indeed to read the views of others here.

I think around this time period a section break (such as the double bar separating the Grave from the Allegro) would indicate the start of a repeat when it wasn't indicated elsewhere. Or rather, I've seen a few examples where there is no "start repeat" sign but the repeat is clearly meant to go from the beginning of the new section, as it seems unlikely that e.g. Schumann would want us to immediately repeat 'Paganini' after playing the first phrase of the recapitulation of the 'Valse allemande', or whatever.

That said, though Beethoven probably didn't mean for us to repeat the introduction, I think it works much better that way, and his failure to mark a repeat sign at the start of the allegro can be considered a "typographical error of genius", similar to those contested A-sharps just before the recap in the Hammerklavier. (At this point almost everyone agrees he meant A-naturals, but for many pianists, A-sharps simply fit the sound of the movement better.)

[silvestrione]

The repeat without the Grave intoduction sounds odd to me...especially once you've been right through and see that the Grave is integral to the whole movement (coming twice more), and the development begins with a new version of it.

I note she did not like much the pianists who try to respect the fp marking on the first chord (Brendel) rather than imposing their own ffp (or even fffp!) as do Kovacevich and Richter.

Furthermore, there is an argument that the last movement IS more Mozartian (why not? It's youngish Beethoven, who we know was haunted by Mozart's C minor concerto), and this early sonata does not have to have a tumultuous last movement...wait for the 'Moonlight' and 'Apassionata' for that. A little restraint, poignant understatement, in that theme works very well, in Arrau and Kempff, and no doubt, from what she said, though I have not heard it, the Lupu. I was lost in wonder at the extract from Lupu in the slow movement: not normally a pianist who grabs my attention (but that's twice in a week: see the extract from Grieg's Concerto in the BBC4 Perfetc Pianists programme).

[Bryn]

Just as a bit of fun, you understand, I have ripped the Lubin, PB-S, Brautigam and Komen recordings, carefully copied and pasted the Grave introduction into the cusp between the two iterations of the allegro follow-on, and burned the edited versions of the four recordings of the sonata to a single CD-R.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Although, as I've said, the repeat of the Grave introduction does work quite well, but justifying this on the grounds that Beethoven quoted it before the development section and again before the final coda, seems a little tenuous in view of these other quotations being limited to just four bars. Beethoven didn't do this in any of his other compositions with slow introductions, unless I've missed something.

[Tony Halstead]

Although, as I've said, the repeat of the Grave introduction does work quite well, but justifying this on the grounds that Beethoven quoted it before the development section and again before the final coda, seems a little tenuous in view of these other quotations being limited to just four bars. Beethoven didn't do this in any of his other compositions with slow introductions, unless I've missed something.

I'm going to stick with the repeat missing out the opening 'Grave'.
I now have to say that this piece does have an important 'significance' for me, since the playing of it ( in a vastly truncated version or 'arrangement' ) led to not only my being 'paid' for the performance, but to my whole family having a FREE HOLIDAY -wait for it - at a 'Butlins Holiday Camp'!
Here is the explanation: in 1957 when I was 12 years old I entered the 'Daily Express Talent Competition' and eventually got through to the 'Finals' which were held at an hotel in Margate that was part of the then 'Billy Butlin Empire'.
To cut the story short, I won the 1st prize playing the 1st movement of the 'Pathetique' but making a huge 'cut' from the end of the exposition to the 'coda' - not only so as to conform to the competition's stipulation of '4-5 minutes' but also to satisfy my desire to follow Stravinsky's path of cutting out the development sections of the Beethoven piano sonatas ( I had read about this as a snotty 11-year old!).
The 'final judge' of my playing ( on a lovely WHITE grand piano) was the (then famous and renowned) disc-jockey PETE MURRAY, and I do have some photos of him giving me the Daily Express silver cup and presenting me with the £10.00 cheque ( a lot of money in those days) and the 'voucher' allowing me and my whole family to have a week's Butlins holiday 'for free'!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Was it the Butlins experience that led you to give up the Piano in favour of the Horn, Tony?

(Or did you continue your Piano lessons - moving on to the "HiDiHommerklavier" Sonata?)