BaL 19.03.16 - Beethoven: Piano Sonata no. 8 in C minor Op. 13 "Sonata Pathétique"

[richardfinegold]

Hmm. I wonder why they bothered to "improve" them.

[Tony Halstead]

I appreciate the inverted commas. The instruments themselves were no more "improved" than were the compositions written for them: Mozart sounds perfect played on the instruments with which he was familiar, and (as we heard today) more recent instruments create problems and encourage "interpretative" distortions of the text from the less sensitive players - problems that vanish with instruments contemporaneous to the compositions (liberating the performer to concentrate on the manifold problems - to extend your motor car metaphor - of the Music itself).

As performing conditions developed and altered, moving from intimate spaces to ever-larger public concert halls, louder instruments became increasingly necessary, losing much of the gentle subtleties of the earlier instruments. (In much the same way that factory farming techniques and chemical additives were required to meet the necessity of providing food for an ever-increasing population.)

Rachmaninov, Sorabji, Stockhausen and countless others need the technical developments of the Twentieth Century Piano, of course - the composers are able to overcome the deficiencies of that horrendous animal. But Beethoven (and Beethoven's Music) doesn't. Which doesn't "invalidate" Pollini, Brendel, Schnabel, Gilels, Lill etc etc etc, of course. But for pianists like Freddie Kempf, it's very very clear that the sort of effects he realizes are present in the Music are better served by using the instruments of the composer's time. And with Ms Hewitt, the deficiencies of the instrument she chose to use lead her to produce distorted extremes of interpretation which sounded (to me) risible.

[Tony Halstead]

I really wish that we had heard more of Steven Lubin.
The very short extracts that were aired were superb in their overall musicality, and of course the sound of the Conrad Graf piano was wonderfully appropriate for this work.

[Keraulophone]

But for pianists like Freddie Kempf, it's very very clear that the sort of effects he realizes are present in the Music are better served by using the instruments of the composer's time. And with Ms Hewitt, the deficiencies of the instrument she chose to use lead her to produce distorted extremes of interpretation which sounded (to me) risible.

[Keraulophone]

I really wish that we had heard more of Steven Lubin.
The very short extracts that were aired were superb in their overall musicality, and of course the sound of the Conrad Graf piano was wonderfully appropriate for this work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3z7vi6RLds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY5MDkMeKsI

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

As performing conditions developed and altered, moving from intimate spaces to ever-larger public concert halls, louder instruments became increasingly necessary, losing much of the gentle subtleties of the earlier instruments. (In much the same way that factory farming techniques and chemical additives were required to meet the necessity of providing food for an ever-increasing population.)

Rachmaninov, Sorabji, Stockhausen and countless others need the technical developments of the Twentieth Century Piano, of course - the composers are able to overcome the deficiencies of that horrendous animal. But Beethoven (and Beethoven's Music) doesn't. Which doesn't "invalidate" Pollini, Brendel, Schnabel, Gilels, Lill etc etc etc, of course. But for pianists like Freddie Kempf, it's very very clear that the sort of effects he realizes are present in the Music are better served by using the instruments of the composer's time. And with Ms Hewitt, the deficiencies of the instrument she chose to use lead her to produce distorted extremes of interpretation which sounded (to me) risible.

Now then, Ferney, you're beginning to sound like a politician justifying going back to feudalism

When a composer writes long notes for an instrument that fades rapidly, he/she does so more in hope than expectation. On a 1790s instrument, that hope can never be realised, but subsequent piano manufacturers grappled with the problem and managed to overcome it to some extent. So if Beethoven wrote a semibreve, we can either play it on an instrument like the ones he had, and listen to the note fading, long before it's supposed to, or play it on an instrument that will indeed sustain this note for as long as the written note actually says. It has nothing whatever to do with volume - just reproducing what the composer wrote more effectively. As for the composer "expecting" the limitations of the instrument (as is sometimes claimed), I think this is twaddle, for the composing style is largely similar to the other instrumental and vocal writing of the period, though with some pianistic modifications.

Incidentally, Angela Hewitt loves her Fazioli so much that she takes it with her on concert tours.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

When a composer writes long notes for an instrument that fades rapidly, he/she does so more in hope than expectation. On a 1790s instrument, that hope can never be realised, but subsequent piano manufacturers grappled with the problem and managed to overcome it to some extent. So if Beethoven wrote a semibreve, we can either play it on an instrument like the ones he had, and listen to the note fading, long before it's supposed to, or play it on an instrument that will indeed sustain this note for as long as the written note actually says. It has nothing whatever to do with volume - just reproducing what the composer wrote more effectively. As for the composer "expecting" the limitations of the instrument (as is sometimes claimed), I think this is twaddle, for the composing style is largely similar to the other instrumental and vocal writing of the period, though with some pianistic modifications.

Careful, Alpie - you sound like a nylon manufacturer trying to persuade a customer to replace their cotton sheets ("Put the sparks back into the bedroom")

Much of the rest of your post sounds to me more wishful thinking than supported by any actual facts evident in performance - but that arises, of course, because I prefer the sounds produced by a contemporary (to the composer) piano in this repertory. You've made statements on other Threads to the effect/giving the impression that you believe that Beethoven needs the "help" of performers in realizing his ideas - that the letter of his scores need adjusting in order to communicate these ideas. You have said that this is because even he was "only human", and as such fallible. This seems to be at the root of your extraordinary comment When a composer writes long notes for an instrument that fades rapidly, he/she does so more in hope than expectation, for which of course there is no evidence. Listening to the opening played on an early piano reveals exactly how "long" the notes need to be - ("long"? - it's a crotchet tied to a dotted semiquaver): the resonance that Beethoven was familiar with - and that he expected from the instrument itself gives the performer the tempo required. Turning it into a chord lasting several seconds isn't what the composer wanted - there's not even a fermata over the chord. I would never buy "Ludwig's Guide to Household Management" ("stuck for time writing your symphony? Try Ludo's "Bagatelle Bakes" that the whole family will enjoy!) - but the bloke knew what was best for his compositions and knew how to communicate that in his scores.

Beethoven didn't write any semibreves in the slower tempi of his solo piano Music, did he? (Genuine question - but I think that he only writes long-sustained notes for instruments that could sustain them.)

[ardcarp]

I can't quite believe that Sarah didn't include any John Lill...

from me too....a great artist who has spent much of his career focusing on the Beethoven sonatas.

Oo no...I can't abide how Freddy Kempf releases some of the lower notes in those opening chords to effect a steeper diminuendo. Surely we need to hear all those underlying notes decaying equally?

Agreed. (....and you didn't have to listen 'very carefully' as SW patronisingly suggested!) IIRC Freddie didn't do that when I heard him live.

[MickyD]

I really wish that we had heard more of Steven Lubin.
The very short extracts that were aired were superb in their overall musicality, and of course the sound of the Conrad Graf piano was wonderfully appropriate for this work.

If I heard correctly, I think it was Jos Van Immerseel who was playing on the original Graf, Tony - Lubin was using a reconstruction of an earlier instrument.

I found it very odd that poor Brautigam didn't get a mention in the HIPP versions.

[Tony Halstead]

If I heard correctly, I think it was Jos Van Immerseel who was playing on the original Graf, Tony - Lubin was using a reconstruction of an earlier instrument.

I found it very odd that poor Brautigam didn't get a mention in the HIPP versions.

I stand corrected, thanks, MickyD! I liked the sound of both the later and the earlier piano.
Also agreed that it was odd not to have heard any Ronald Brautigam...

[verismissimo]

... Lubin was using a reconstruction of an earlier instrument...

Derek Adlam 1987, based on a Walter of 1795.

I thought it was spiffing. Great sound, top playing!

[ardcarp]

I admire Angela Hewitt and her Fazioli hugely, but notwithstanding her complete repeat, it is very difficult to form an opinion of her Pathetique (or anyone else's for that matter) from a tiny snippet...which is why SW is employed to assess things for us. We ought to have heard more snippets from her winner though.

I was in agreement with her over her view that it was not possible to discern a 'trend' in performance styles over the recorded history of the piece. But recordings from say 1950 to 1975 sound very different because of recording techniques. Close making and little ambience seemed the order of the day. In the past 40 years recordings have attempted to capture the piano as it would sound in a pleasant acoustic environment. Pianos seem to have changed in tone too. I guess Steinway grands haven't changed much in the past 80 years except in the way they are 'voiced'. There seems to be more brightness in the top end...and I don't think this is just a matter of recorded sound.

Fortepianos, original or reconstructed, bring an insight into how Mozart and Beethoven sonatas might have sounded, and I enjoyed the Lubin snippets. But would I want a HIPP version to listen to repeatedly?

[vinteuil]

...would I want a HIPP version to listen to repeatedly?

... well I certainly would, every time.

I hope that in the fullness of time you - and dear old "Beethoven Wrote For A Fazioli" Alpensinfonie - will come to see and hear the wisdom of this

[ardcarp]

...but then there's the oft-repeated "Beethoven would have loved a Model D Steinway if there'd been one handy at the time".

[Nick Armstrong]

like most forumites I imagine I have quite a few recordings of this piece

Oh dear.... I find I have no recording of the Pathetique! I repeat:

I should have ...known more about Beethoven sonata recordings. Which I now do...

I discovered the late ones first (consistent with my travel backwards through the history of music since discovering DSCH#15 in 1977) and have several recordings of those, plus some less-familiar earlier ones; but tended to avoid the 'big three' named ones, which I associated with schoolfriends, family and self fumbling through them...

So I got a lot out of this BAL. Especially interested by the varying views about where the first movement repeat should start. I found both convincing.

Kovacevich: good choice.

Yet he didn't feature all that much in the comparisons.

Indeed, sounded a very worthy choice to me. He featured no less than anyone else, surely. And he was allowed to set the tone with that first illustration of the opening of the piece. I was hooked immediately by that first chord, and thought - whoever 'wins', I'm getting that. Glad that the rest of the performance seems to match up. I have SK in the Op 31 sonatas, and find them enthralling.

Angela Hewitt so uninteresting. Bound to win.

Like ferney, I'm not sure that's the adjective - but unconvincing, certainly (apart from that first movement repeat)... and credit to Sarah Walker that AH did not prove to be 'bound to win'!

Oo no...I can't abide how Freddy Kempf releases some of the lower notes in those opening chords to effect a steeper diminuendo. Surely we need to hear all those underlying notes decaying equally?

Indeed, struck me as a misguided gimmick

(....and you didn't have to listen 'very carefully' as SW patronisingly suggested!)

Yes - it sounded all too obvious