BaL 20.02.16 - Shostakovich: Symphony no. 9

[HighlandDougie]

Interesting to compare the Qobuz samples (mp3; 320kbps) of the 9th from the complete box (which my copy of the physical CDs tells me is remastered) and from the single symphony (in the version spotted by Caliban on i-Tunes which seems to be a new remastering). The latter is, simply, better than the former. Melodiya seems to have an 'exclusive' relationship with Apple/iTunes (although Qobuz have clearly got their hands on the 'new' 9th). That means that further symphonies from the KK cycle are available as downloads from i-Tunes. While I would not normally touch iTunes with the proverbial bargepole unless I was desperate for a particular recording as they don't do lossless, the audio quality of these Melodiya KK DSCH individual 'new' downloads is really very good. The 8th (never a great recording) is probably never going to sound better. While, if I may borrow a phrase from another thread, there may have been some "jiggery-pokery" at work in terms of sound processing, the end results are pretty pleasing to the ear.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"It is well known that 18th Century music contains more "non-written" elements than written ones. Discovering these hidden aspects, therefore - the hidden codes that reveal the music's varying emotions from the most intimate to the most intense - is a highly interesting and creative process. With composers such as Haydn this search is even more stimulating because he took such care over the inner voices and accompanying parts... at times the violas, at other times the wind, bring out something not necessarily indicated in the score, allowing them to express to the fullest extent the many rhythmic, dynamic and harmonic elements that cannot be written, because they come from the sensibilities of the composer and performer."
(Ottavio Dantone, in his note to his recent, marvellous Haydn set of 78-81).

I couldn't help thinking of DSCH's "hidden codes" when I first read this last week (Not to mention Mahler, "the most important part of the music is not in the notes"). So I was delighted to read Shostakovich's comment on Kondrashin's rehearsals (v. 56 & 65 above)... no matter how detailed your score, it's another thing again each time you start to play it... and "a great poem is never finished, only abandoned" (Paul Valéry).

(Busy day, must dash, back late...)

Yeah - but this doesn't "connect" with me, and for reasons demonstrated by those unwritten rits in the Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky recordings. With them, the 4/4 bars become repeatedly "pointed out" - it happens every time, and so becomes expected and even predictable - and it means that there's nothing left when the written rit is reached, and we lose a significant marker in the course of the movement. Shostakovich's subtle rhythmic nudges become pokes in the ribs - like someone telling you a joke and sticking his elbow to point out the key words. Instead of a moment in a work which parodies vulgarity, it becomes itself vulgar - distracting for some listeners, and (because on a recording) turning into "the work" for others, leading some of them to believe that without the rits, the work is somehow less effective.

And for that reason such licence (which might be effective elsewhere in an individual concert performance) is dangerous on record, moving attention from the insights of the work and focussing instead on the personality of the performer. (And thence - though never the case with Kondrashin or Rozhdestvensky - often to the self-sensationalizing of that personality.)

Barshai works because his insights are based on what the score offers him: exactly as you say "no matter how detailed the score, it's another thing again each time you start to play it" - and with a work as rich as Shostakovich #9, it doesn't need a conductor to "add" to it: there's multitudes enough already there. Kondrashin annoys me (on this point and this point alone) because he has put his own "interpretation" between the score and me as listener. Great man as he was, I'm more interested in what the text of the score in its own - each time ever different - terms has to give to me.

[Barbirollians]

I listened to this on Saturday morning admittedly not with 100% attention but did Bernstein even get a mention ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I listened to this on Saturday morning admittedly not with 100% attention but did Bernstein even get a mention ?

I don't think so; either of them.

[Barbirollians]

I don't think so; either of them.

Poor show - I do not know the DG but love his Sony version

Here is Lenny talking about the piece - though unfortunately the musical extracts have been removed .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVfz5YymsXI

[BBMmk2]

Having heard the Barshai, I quite enjoyed it still! Will have to check out the Kondrashin, at some point but also Jansons!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Poor show - I do not know the DG but love his Sony version

Here is Lenny talking about the piece - though unfortunately the musical extracts have been removed .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVfz5YymsXI

Thanks for that, Barbi - the video of the documentary used to be available, but doesn't seem to be amongst the Amazonian treasures.

The film of the Bernstein VPO Shostakovich #9 is available on youTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfakIg9E_ao

[Nick Armstrong]

The film of the Bernstein VPO Shostakovich #9 is available on youTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfakIg9E_ao

Oh thanks ferns - I've never seen that.

At first sight, I had a slight sense of 'surely not' at the idea of that music in such gilded surroundings, white tie, sleek Viennese... But the great 'strut' of that first movement instantly suspended my disbelief (made my eyes water!)

[visualnickmos]

Poor show - I do not know the DG but love his Sony version Bernstein NYPO...

[mahlerei]

Just a guess, but could the iTunes 'remaster' be what's known as 'mastered for iTunes'? In other words it is exclusive to them. I've found Melodiya very evasive when asked whether recordings are remasters. Sometimes I'm not sure they understand the difference between a reissue and a remaster...

[Barbirollians]

Very poor I think to leave Bernstein's versions out of the discussion - loved this VPO version too .

[Stanfordian]

Very poor I think to leave Bernstein's versions out of the discussion - loved this VPO version too .

Hiya Barbirollians,

Sadly Bernstein is not taken seriously by many in the classical music world. Thankfully many on this board are more enlightened!

[gurnemanz]

Hiya Barbirollians,

Sadly Bernstein is not taken seriously by many in the classical music world. Thankfully many on this board are more enlightened!

He loves the Ninth ... and talking about it. His version with the New York Phil is certainly to be taken seriously, even though full of jokes which he points to in his commentary.

[jayne lee wilson]

Well spotted, M'lud! I have the Melodiya box (re-masterings - or so we are told) and the Aulos box (definitely remastered) but, having downloaded the single disc 2015 version from i-Tunes, burnt it to disc and done a straight A/B comparison with the Melodiya set (the Aulos one is in France), it is unquestionably an improvement over the Melodiya box version. Warmer all round. As to the care taken over the remastering, one small example is that the brass fanfares in the fourth movement largo no longer have a faint pre-echo/print through. The sound of the download using Audirvana and a Musical Fidelity DAC is even better. I may now have to download the rest of the series (but I could always sell the CDs) ....

...I think you'll find the Aulos version is distinctly finer, HD... from the very start I felt uneasy with the Qobuz 2015 Melodiya lossless - it seemed tame compared to my memory of the Aulos I'd been using this week, and so it proved on direct comparison. The latest Melodiya is OK, but feels too processed, and has lost space and air, that free-breathing openness that makes the Aulos remaster so thrillingly realistic in the fierce climaxes. This is especially damaging in the Largo, where this slightly muted quality has robbed both brass and bassoon of some of that precious, dolefully snarling Soviet character, and reduced the space around bassoon, brass and strings, so that final beatification of strings against bassoon isn't so breathtakingly special....yet, back in the moderato, the Aulos is at a lower, more natural level, so the clarinet/flute solos are quieter, the strings smoother and more open at the climax, and the dynamic range feels wider for being less congested. In short - better high-frequency resolution. Much easier to turn up!

To me, this latest Qobuz Melodiya lossless download sounds simply like a tamer, less highly-resolved version of the 2006 CD I'm afraid ( Audirvana tends to warm things up a bit too, compared to CD..), and whilst that CD does indeed have livelier HF, I still preferred its dynamism and openness (especially noticeable in the presto) to the treble-cut 2015 attempt. (BTW - I could still just make out a hint of print-through in the Largo on the Qobuz lossless. Audio-pedant's note. Sorry HD.)

...All of which would be academic, given the non-availability or daft 2ndhand pricing of the Aulos or the Melodiya CDs themselves, unless you're happy to download the Kondrashin/DSCH intégrale from Qobuz as Melodiya Lossless (as above - http://www.qobuz.com/fr-fr/album/sho.../0888831477457). (Just noticed - if you scroll through, you can download the 2006 9th (2008 download) separately after all...)

How I now regret not picking up the Venezia remaster of the Rozhdestvensky Cycle issued in 2005. (It seems to have been out again briefly in 2012, salt in the wound...)
When I saw it, I'd already bought both the Melodiya and Aulos KKs and thought, oh no, not more... have you heard the Venezia Rozh, HD? Venezia does seem very scarce now.

[jayne lee wilson]

Yeah - but this doesn't "connect" with me, and for reasons demonstrated by those unwritten rits in the Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky recordings. With them, the 4/4 bars become repeatedly "pointed out" - it happens every time, and so becomes expected and even predictable - and it means that there's nothing left when the written rit is reached, and we lose a significant marker in the course of the movement. Shostakovich's subtle rhythmic nudges become pokes in the ribs - like someone telling you a joke and sticking his elbow to point out the key words. Instead of a moment in a work which parodies vulgarity, it becomes itself vulgar - distracting for some listeners, and (because on a recording) turning into "the work" for others, leading some of them to believe that without the rits, the work is somehow less effective.

And for that reason such licence (which might be effective elsewhere in an individual concert performance) is dangerous on record, moving attention from the insights of the work and focussing instead on the personality of the performer. (And thence - though never the case with Kondrashin or Rozhdestvensky - often to the self-sensationalizing of that personality.)

Barshai works because his insights are based on what the score offers him: exactly as you say "no matter how detailed the score, it's another thing again each time you start to play it" - and with a work as rich as Shostakovich #9, it doesn't need a conductor to "add" to it: there's multitudes enough already there. Kondrashin annoys me (on this point and this point alone) because he has put his own "interpretation" between the score and me as listener. Great man as he was, I'm more interested in what the text of the score in its own - each time ever different - terms has to give to me.

But David Nice made the point that only Rozhdestvensky adheres to DSCH's minutely detailed dynamic markings in the moderato, and in the example played his solo clarinettist was strikingly (and expressively!) varied here, ritenutos notwithstanding; Barshai's soloist hardly varied in dynamic expression at all; so his supposed fidelity to the score failed to observe that much, at least.

Question is, was it deliberately licentious...?
For me it seems all of a piece with that aforementioned brusqueness - lack of creative interpretation, written or not - I noted elsewhere in his recording, in the winds especially.