BaL 2.01.16 - Beethoven: Symphony no. 5 in C minor

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Now I'm getting confused. I'd assumed the extra section was a repeat of the scherzo/trio - ABAB, followed by the muted version of A which merges into the eventual link to the finale

Yes - you're right; I muddled the "muted version" with the start of the "Link".

I see what you mean, but I think of what you call AB as being the scherzo section, and therefore just A, the 2/4 section being the trio.

Oh, I see - yes, that works, too.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Anybody know anything about Nicholas Baragwanath?

https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/music/people/nicholas.baragwanath

Did the Meistersinger BaL last year.

[Alison]

https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/music/p...as.baragwanath

Did the Meistersinger BaL last year.

Seems to be a trend for raiding university music departments for library building these days.

[Alison]

Anyone on here won a Westrup prize?!

How good would you have to be?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Anyone on here won a Westrup prize?!
How good would you have to be?

It's a very specific prize, awarded to the writer of what is regarded (I'm not sure by whom) as the finest articles published in the Journal Music & Letters. So, if you have an article on developments in Timpani tuning technology in Vienna 1780 - 1830, and it's accepted for publication by the reading panel of M&L - you're in with a chance!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It's a very specific prize, awarded to the writer of what is regarded (I'm not sure by whom) as the finest articles published in the Journal Music & Letters. So, if you have an article on developments in Timpani tuning technology in Vienna 1780 - 1830, and it's accepted for publication by the reading panel of M&L - you're in with a chance!

[verismissimo]

Just back home, so late joining this party, but

Wot no Nikisch/BPO from 1913?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Arthur-Nikis...thoven+nikisch

Nikisch/BPO of 1913 definitely available - from at least 3 sources: DG, Warner and the Dutton above. It's an important landmark in recording - the first of any Beethoven symphony and by one of the greatest conductors and orchestras of the time. Certainly not hi-fi, but clearly shows performance practice and interpretation of the time.

Born in 1855, Nikisch was trained at the Vienna Conservatoire and played violin at the laying of the foundation stone at Bayreuth in 1872. Leipzig Opera, then Boston, then Budapest, then Gewandhaus, then Berlin Phil from 1895.

Conducted Elgar 1! Great influence on Boult and others of succeeding generation.

[Pabmusic]

Nikisch/BPO of 1913 definitely available - from at least 3 sources: DG, Warner and the Dutton above. It's an important landmark in recording - the first of any Beethoven symphony and by one of the greatest conductors and orchestras of the time. Certainly not hi-fi, but clearly shows performance practice and interpretation of the time.

Born in 1855, Nikisch was trained at the Vienna Conservatoire and played violin at the laying of the foundation stone at Bayreuth in 1872. Leipzig Opera, then Boston, then Budapest, then Gewandhaus, then Berlin Phil from 1895.

Conducted Elgar 1! Great influence on Boult and others of succeeding generation.

I think this recording was the first complete one of any symphony. The first of...well, just think...

Incidentally, Nikisch conducted the first performance of George Butterworth's Rhapsody: A Shropshire Lad (Leeds Festival 1913).

[seabright]

Perhaps it was missed in my earlier post but Nikisch was not the first to record the Beethoven 5th. It had already been recorded by Friedrich Kark and the Odeon Symphony in Berlin in 1910. There are two uploads of it on You Tube, the first have been there since August 2012, so I'm surprised that Nikisch is still being credited when the Kark has been readily available for anyone and everyone to hear on-line for over three years ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjqybFAGGcs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVbgz9kZeD0

The Kark 78s are also referred to as being the first of the 5th Symphony in the Wiki article on the work (link below). This also refers to the Scherzo repeat and states that it's marked in the manuscript but then implies that Beethoven changed his mind about it when the work came to be published. I remember Robert Simpson once saying that Beethoven also had second thoughts about the exposition repeat in the first movement of the 'Eroica,' putting it in but then taking it out, so it is perfectly feasible that a similar change of mind occurred over the repeat in No.5 ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Beethoven)

[Pabmusic]

Perhaps it was missed in my earlier post but Nikisch was not the first to record the Beethoven 5th. It had already been recorded by Friedrich Kark and the Odeon Symphony in Berlin in 1910. There are two uploads of it on You Tube, the first have been there since August 2012, so I'm surprised that Nikisch is still being credited when the Kark has been readily available for anyone and everyone to hear on-line for over three years ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjqybFAGGcs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVbgz9kZeD0

The Kark 78s are also referred to as being the first of the 5th Symphony in the Wiki article on the work (link below). This also refers to the Scherzo repeat and states that it's marked in the manuscript but then implies that Beethoven changed his mind about it when the work came to be published. I remember Robert Simpson once saying that Beethoven also had second thoughts about the exposition repeat in the first movement of the 'Eroica,' putting it in but then taking it out, so it is perfectly feasible that a similar change of mind occurred over the repeat in No.5 ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympho..._5_(Beethoven)

Really interesting. Thanks.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thank you for the links to the Kark, seabright: I had no idea that this recording existed.

I remember Robert Simpson once saying that Beethoven also had second thoughts about the exposition repeat in the first movement of the 'Eroica,' putting it in but then taking it out ...]

... and reinstating it - Beethoven was a master of the Hokey-Kokey! Thomas Sipe's monograph on the work (in the Cambridge Handbooks series) clarifies the situation (on page 27):

In June of 1805, the First Movement of the "Eroica" was almost certainly performed with the repeat in the opening movement [sic] - it appears in ink in both the autograph copy and the parts. However, Beethoven vacillated about the repeat. In the autograph copy, it is crossed out along with the Prima Volta and Seconda Volta measures. By the Winter of [1804-]1805, Beethoven had reverted to his original design. A letter from Carl van Beethoven to Breitkopf and Hartel dated February 12, 1805 stipulates the correct addition of repeat signs. Carl reports, "My brother believed at first, before he had heard the Symphony, that it would be too long if the first part of the Movement were repeated; but after several performances it seemed that it would be detrimental if the first part were not repeated.

[verismissimo]

Thank you for the links to the Kark, seabright: I had no idea that this recording existed...

Sorry, I missed your reference, seab. In fact I did know of it a year or so ago, but had forgotten about it.

[seabright]

^^^ Thanks for the info on the 'Eroica' repeat. It would be interesting to know how many composers changed their minds about their music once they'd heard it rehearsed and performed. For example, Tchaikovsky was very glad that his publisher hadn't got round to engraving and printing his 2nd Symphony as, having heard several times, he wanted to make some drastic changes. These included a complete re-write of the first movement and making a big cut in the finale. Some commentators have preferred the original version and as it has had at least one recording (Geoffrey Simon / LSO) listeners can make their own minds up!

On the other hand, many works are engraved and published prior to their first performance and I remember Stokowski saying in an interview that Rachmaninoff "suffered very much from that" as the composer wanted to change things after actually hearing his music but couldn't, as it was already in print. Vaughan Williams however was of independent means, so he was able arrange and afford the revised engravings of several of his works, most notably the "London" Symphony. I imagine there are many such examples from other composers too, from Beethoven onwards!

[Gordon]

Anybody know anything about Nicholas Baragwanath?

Interesting surname, sounds Cornish but his CV [see below link] doesn't say. A literal translation from Welsh means Wheat-Bread so perhaps he should be Nicholas Whitbread even if it isn't as exotic!!

Anyone who has been to Soweto in Johannesburg may have been here:

https://www.chrishanibaragwanathhospital.co.za

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Hani_Baragwanath_Hospital

[LeMartinPecheur]

The LMP shelves aren't likely to snap under 40+ years of collected 5ths.

VPO/ Bohm was my first, later supplemented on LP by BPO/ Cluytens and the 1948 VPO/ Karajan in a Japanese pressing with the 8th. The CD shelves reveal LCP/ Norrington, PO/ Klemperer (mono and later stereo) and the VPO/ C Kleiber.

So no prizes for me for left-field versions unless the '48 Karajan counts?

Oh, whoops, I'd forgotten my grandad's 78s - anyone fancy VPO/ Schalk?? Doesn't seem to have made it onto EA's list for some strange reason - did he get red-carded again for fiddling with the orchestration and making cuts?