BaL 5.12.15 - Schubert: Mass No. 6 in E flat, D950

[ardcarp]

I thought it really odd too that both JS and AMcG seemed to think the work should be seen in the light of later C19 choral music such as Bruckner, a wholly anachronistic approach imv. Schubert knew nothing of the later C19 choral tradition.

Well, leaving aside the nauseating mutual ingratiation, I don't think that's quite what they said. JS made the point that you wouldn't sing this Mass with an organ reduction as part of the Sunday morning service as you might (and I have) the Mass in G or A flat. The scale, scope and to some extent the musical language here seems to look forward to a mid-19thC style. I think that was what he was implying.

I too thought 'old style' singers (post#34) was a rather strange expression. Just as oboe playing, violin vibrato-speed and tempi in general have changed over the recorded music era, it is not surprising singers have evolved a bit too....maybe not always in a good way! But just to say 'old style' is too vague, and I'm not quite sure what he meant either. Again, had he not been hassled by the duetting with AMcG, he might have explained himself better.

[MickyD]

NLA I think, Micky. Though I invested in a pre-loved copy this week, yet to be auditioned.

It's still very much available, along with all the other masses, for a very good price:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Masses-Franz-Schubert/dp/B0065HDLB2/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1449326411&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=schubert+weil

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's still very much available, along with all the other masses, for a very good price:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Masses-Franz...=schubert+weil

Impecunious Forumistas can also get the set (second hand) for under a tenner:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00009PBXF

[BBMmk2]

Did I hear that Sawallisch won the accolade?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Did I hear that Sawallisch won the accolade?

You did - he did; as he did twenty years ago, IIRC! (It is a very good recording of an excellent performance.)

If you're thinking of buying, Bbm - it's a bit like the Verdi Requiem: there were two Sawallisch versions under consideration, both highly rated: one from 1971 (available on Philips: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00000E4A8 - which lost out at the final fence because of audible edits [which some listeners might find intrusive]) and the Winner from a decade later from EMI:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000NPCMFS

[BBMmk2]

You did - he did; as he did twenty years ago, IIRC! (It is a very good recording of an excellent performance.)

If you're thinking of buying, Bbm - it's a bit like the Verdi Requiem: there were two Sawallisch versions under consideration, both highly rated: one from 1971 (available on Philips: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00000E4A8 - which lost out at the final fence because of audible edits [which some listeners might find intrusive]) and the Winner from a decade later from EMI:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000NPCMFS

thanks Ferney. I've already have the 1971 Phillips set. Hmm, the later one? I might have a look for the Hickox, as I usually like what he does, or perhaps I will have to "try" and listen again to the podcast, later and find out what the reviewer thought. Generally, though, I do find Hickox has a continuity.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

thanks Ferney. I've already have the 1971 Phillips set. Hmm, the later one? I might have a look for the Hickox, as I usually like what he does, or perhaps I will have to "try" and listen again to the podcast, later and find out what the reviewer thought. Generally, though, I do find Hickox has a continuity.

It was often quite difficult to hear what the reviewer thought on yesterday's "Andrew MacGregor Show", Bbm - too many interruptions from the show's "host"! BUT, this was the HIPP recording that got the most attention, and the excerpts played sounded very good indeed to me.

[ardcarp]

Hicocx had the advantage of vast choral experience, so IMO he often has the edge where a choir is involved. I get the feeling that some conductors rely on the choir having been trained up by a chorus master and just 'conduct it' as if it were, for instance, the brass section. There are some other good ones out there too; Andrew Davies being one.....

[BBMmk2]

Hicocx had the advantage of vast choral experience, so IMO he often has the edge where a choir is involved. I get the feeling that some conductors rely on the choir having been trained up by a chorus master and just 'conduct it' as if it were, for instance, the brass section. There are some other good ones out there too; Andrew Davies being one.....

Andrew Davies?.....

[Nick Armstrong]

AMcG was annoying but as I do not know the piece it did not annoy me too much on this occasion . What a stunning work it is and I was greatly moved by the extracts from both Sawallisch recordings especially Helen Donath's singing on the 1971 .

It seemed that JS was trying to say the winner was the 1971 unless you were bothered by the edits but AMcG gabbled over him and made the 1980 the winner on the grounds he preferred the soloists .

Listened to this BAL this morning - I'm very much with you Barbs, hearing the work for the first time was such a revelation for me, that the annoyances of the cosy-chat format didn't grate too badly (although AMcG's main contribution seemed to me to be utterly to confuse the two Sawallisch versions, so I had to go back to the beginning to hear again which JS played early on to illustrate the oboe-horn instrumentation).

I thought the duet of the two tenors was breathtaking in the hands of Padmore and Gilchrist - or rather, in their mouths and in Hickox's hands. I have to get that. And the earlier Sawallisch too appealed to me more (a fig for all that nattering about edits!). But also, the Berlin reading by Harnoncourt sounded wonderful - like AMcG, I was surprised that it disappeared from the final run-in. This wasn't really explained, other than by the emphasis on the cumulative effect of both Sawallisch readings. Which I can well believe - if ever there was a conductor who could add an indefinable extra (impossible to convey in short snippets), it was Sawallisch (cf. his Schumann symphonies).

This BAL will have cost me money... But I agree: how much better would it have been to have Summerly on his own

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I thought the duet of the two tenors was breathtaking in the hands of Padmore and Gilchrist

(Applies to the rest of your post, too )

[Richard Tarleton]

I thought the duet of the two tenors was breathtaking in the hands of Padmore and Gilchrist - or rather, in their mouths and in Hickox's hands. I

Indeed. Not knowing the work (which I too am going to buy) and listening on a long drive, I was trying to remember what the tenor duet reminded me of, and then it came to me. The "et incarnatus est" bit (and the little orchestral bit just before it) is spookily reminiscent of, even identical to, the opening of the love duet "Nuit d'ivresse et d'extase infinie" from Berlioz Les Troyens - have a listen

[Barbirollians]

I think I understood what JS was saying about it being such a forward looking work . There were definitely pre-echoes of Mahler to my ears especially in one of the extracts from the Hickox . Which I suspect I shall be adding to my Sawallisch recordings soon .

[aeolium]

I think I understood what JS was saying about it being such a forward looking work . There were definitely pre-echoes of Mahler to my ears especially in one of the extracts from the Hickox .

Or could they have been echoes of the Schubert in music by Mahler, particularly the Wunderhorn works?

I do agree with JS about the Schubert A-flat and E-flat Masses being of quite a different character and quality to the earlier choral works. Perhaps I overreacted in my earlier post, but I just wish JS had had the chance to develop his ideas more fully without interruptions.

[Nick Armstrong]

(Applies to the rest of your post, too )

How kind

Indeed. Not knowing the work (which I too am going to buy) and listening on a long drive, I was trying to remember what the tenor duet reminded me of, and then it came to me. The "et incarnatus est" bit (and the little orchestral bit just before it) is spookily reminiscent of, even identical to, the opening of the love duet "Nuit d'ivresse et d'extase infinie" from Berlioz Les Troyens - have a listen

Ah yes - I see what you mean! It's the lilting triple feel of the compound time signatures, of course, which is the most obvious fellow-feeling (I see from scores available online that the Berlioz is actually in 6/8 whereas the Schubert is in 12/8, but the lilt is the same).

I've spent quite a bit of time today comparing the leading 'contenders' using iTunes Music and other sites. (In passing, I've discovered the first two instances of recordings being available to buy on iTunes, but not being available to stream via iTunes Music (the Hickox and the Harnoncourt/Berlin recordings) - I thought if you could buy it, you could stream it).

I've come to the clear conclusion that the earlier Dresden recording on Phillips by Sawallisch is by some margin my favourite one. The tenor soloists are if anything more magical than the two Brits mentioned earlier; the choral style is FAR preferable to my ears than the other Sawallisch version (not keen on the Bavarian matrons), the overall recorded sound is likewise preferable to the other contenders (esp the Berlin Harnoncourt which has an oddly boomy/muddy lower register to the sound which is disagreeable). But above all, there's an extra dimension of ... not sure what to call it.... sublimity is one word that occurs to me, it seems to have a lot to do with the orchestra's contribution, the heart-stopping beauty of the woodwind for instance (that clarinet solo in the Incarnatus est duet)... After my mini-BAL today, all the others are in the shade, and it's the Phillips recording under the magician Sawallisch that's going to draw my money from my wallet (FLAC downloads on Presto Classical).

As I think I said before: revelatory!