BaL 14.05.11 - Mozart: Piano Concerto no. 17

[Nick Armstrong]

'Fraid its yer ears Cal!!

Well you and me both, Ams

Now next time I listen to it, the edits will slap me about the head

However I was just listening to Zacharias playing it with the Lausanne Chamber Orchestra - some absolutely gorgeous stuff there, bit odd to me that Mr Philip stuck so closely with the sacred beasts Barenboim, Uchida, etc...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

....Also plays K.467 on Disk one........

.......plays K.491 and K.537 on disk two. ....

Even the Americans spell "Disc" with a "C" when referring to Compact Discs.

[salymap]

I think I sometimes spell it with a 'k'. Perhaps it's an age thing, does it really matter?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Salymap, you are very naughty. Please write out 100 times, "I must not use American spellings" and follow this by writing 50 real English words that Microsoft programmes get wrong.

[Andrew Preview]

I thought the Pires/COE/Abbado recording sounded very good indeed.

I enjoyed most of the extracts from the Pires recording, but not the central section from the Andante. When the music turns to the minor, it should sound bleak, desolate. Pires is very plain here, almost as if she were playing 'Three blind mice'. For all the other merits of her performance, that's a deal breaker for me. I prefer Perahia, even with the engineering glitches, and Andsnes, even with his dubious pacing in the finale. As a library choice, I would have thought that Howard Shelley would be a strong contender. His recording is overly resonant, giving a sound that is bigger than ideal, but it is a lovely performance.

[aeolium]

I admire Perahia's performances, but I wonder whether in the later concertos the issue of directing from the keyboard (which has cropped up a few times on these boards) comes into play. Robert Philip I think said it was no accident that the versions he found most convincing - the Pires and the Bilson (and also the nla Levin) - all had dedicated conductors. Directing from the keyboard may be more authentic in that it mirrors the performance practice of the time but it's not the case that everyone can bring it off, especially if the pianists do not have extensive conducting experience. I find for the later concertos my preferences are nearly always those where there is a separate conductor.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Directing from the keyboard may be more authentic in that it mirrors the performance practice of the time but it's not the case that everyone can bring it off, especially if the pianists do not have extensive conducting experience.

Absolutely. I once played an oboe concerto, directing it myself - that was only because I wasn't 100% confident that the real conductor would play the orchestral introduction at my prefered tempo. But professional conductors would always consult, and do retakes when necessary - a much better arrangement.

[Nick Armstrong]

Well I re-listened to yesterday's BAL this morning. I paid particular attention to the extract from the Perahia recording which is allegedly marred by an edit. I still couldn't hear it - but it was just the DAB broadcast recorded to SD card. So since then I have listened to the CD both through headphones and on the big speakers.

I'm happy to say I was wrong to fear that:

Now next time I listen to it, the edits will slap me about the head

- I simply can't hear the problem. Yes, at the point identified by Robert Philip, there is perhaps a slightly lower volume, but to these ears it is entirely consistent with an interpretative diminuendo - there is no click or hiccup, not any change to the background noise.

I've listened to the whole thing a couple of times with ears akimbo for edits. I hear none.

I have to say that IMHO it is really unnecessary to take any production issues into account when assessing this recording which remains sublime as far as I am concerned, as others above have pointed out - great open sound, lovely piano sound from Perahia and the engineers, and above all perfectly judged performance: alive, affectionate, humorous when called for, full of felicities too many to mention.

On relistening to BAL, I find it extraordinary that (while mentioning the alleged 'flaws' in the Perahia recording) no mention was made of what is to my ears a far far more serious issue with some of the recordings featured, namely the fact that the Uchida, the Anderszewski and the Barenboim have in various ways really unpleasant recorded sound and acoustic. Actually Robert Philip did mention one where the piano sound was dry in comparison with the orchestra and hence sounded distant - can't remember which that one was. But the Barenboim and Uchida discs sounded dead and thick, and the Anderszewski far too reverberant and fuzzy for my taste.

And the other thought to strike me was the truth of this, posted earlier:

One of the most pleasing things about Mozart is that hardly anyone can perform his music very well... you can be absolutely certain that 95 per cent of Mozart performances are unsatisfactory - so do not hesitate to say so.

In Mozart, a miss is as good as a mile for me - and in terms of tempi, nuance, style (both of piano and orchestral playing) I found that Barenboim, Uchida/Tate ( particularly horrible I think), and Ashkenazy were a mile or more out. That Ashkenazy slow movement

Last, even though HIPP in Baroque works is usually my preference and love, I find that I simply can't get anywhere with fortepianos (sorry to all the fans here). I find myself listening to the instrument, not the music. It does nothing for me - indeed, worse than that, it spoils the experience. I guess it's just ingrained habit. But I don't care - give me Perahia or Zacharias any day...

... and perhaps Pires. I love her playing and am an unconditional Abbado fan, so have ordered the recommended performance which I don't know. It tipped the balance for me when I found that it is available now coupled with Nos 14 and 21 on this very good value reissue http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/pages/p...D&prod=4775747

[amateur51]

Well I re-listened to yesterday's BAL this morning. I paid particular attention to the extract from the Perahia recording which is allegedly marred by an edit. I still couldn't hear it - but it was just the DAB broadcast recorded to SD card. So since then I have listened to the CD both through headphones and on the big speakers.

I'm happy to say I was wrong to fear that:



- I simply can't hear the problem. Yes, at the point identified by Robert Philip, there is perhaps a slightly lower volume, but to these ears it is entirely consistent with an interpretative diminuendo - there is no click or hiccup, not any change to the background noise.

I've listened to the whole thing a couple of times with ears akimbo for edits. I hear none.

I have to say that IMHO it is really unnecessary to take any production issues into account when assessing this recording which remains sublime as far as I am concerned, as others above have pointed out - great open sound, lovely piano sound from Perahia and the engineers, and above all perfectly judged performance: alive, affectionate, humorous when called for, full of felicities too many to mention.

On relistening to BAL, I find it extraordinary that (while mentioning the alleged 'flaws' in the Perahia recording) no mention was made of what is to my ears a far far more serious issue with some of the recordings featured, namely the fact that the Uchida, the Anderszewski and the Barenboim have in various ways really unpleasant recorded sound and acoustic. Actually Robert Philip did mention one where the piano sound was dry in comparison with the orchestra and hence sounded distant - can't remember which that one was. But the Barenboim and Uchida discs sounded dead and thick, and the Anderszewski far too reverberant and fuzzy for my taste.

And the other thought to strike me was the truth of this, posted earlier:



In Mozart, a miss is as good as a mile for me - and in terms of tempi, nuance, style (both of piano and orchestral playing) I found that Barenboim, Uchida/Tate ( particularly horrible I think), and Ashkenazy were a mile or more out. That Ashkenazy slow movement

Last, even though HIPP in Baroque works is usually my preference and love, I find that I simply can't get anywhere with fortepianos (sorry to all the fans here). I find myself listening to the instrument, not the music. It does nothing for me - indeed, worse than that, it spoils the experience. I guess it's just ingrained habit. But I don't care - give me Perahia or Zacharias any day...

... and perhaps Pires. I love her playing and am an unconditional Abbado fan, so have ordered the recommended performance which I don't know. It tipped the balance for me when I found that it is available now coupled with Nos 14 and 21 on this very good value reissue http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/pages/p...D&prod=4775747

Interesting stuff, Caliban!

Abbado was lucky she turned up to play the right piece

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI8kZd0TcFQ

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

With regard to fortepianos, wasn't it András Schiff who became very excited about playing on Mozart's own instrument, but later went back to using a modern piano?
Those early instruments were not far advance on the prototypes, unlike harpsichords of the late baroque, which had been evolving for some considerable time.

[salymap]

Wasn'tit Perahia who was so fussy about one of his recordings he kept the other musicians in the studio half through the night to do retakes?

[aeolium]

With regard to fortepianos, wasn't it András Schiff who became very excited about playing on Mozart's own instrument, but later went back to using a modern piano?

I very much like Schiff's recording of two late Mozart piano trios, with Shiokawa and Perenyi, in which he plays on Mozart's instrument. He also IIRC recorded Beethoven's Bagatelles on one of Beethoven's Broadwood pianos, though his later recording of the piano sonatas uses a modern instrument.

[ardcarp]

#66 and #67 On the subject of conductor or not. I hesitate to wade in as any sort of expert. But as a conductor myself I've directed quite a lot of Mozart concertos...several piano, one clarinet (!) and shortly the flute concrto No 1 (in rehearsal now). I am not (obviously) in charge of one of the big-name orchestras, merely bands varying from amateur through semi-pro to pro. I would like to concur with the view that Mozart is extremely difficult. It's a bit like treading on eggshells, whereas in one of the big Romantic concertos somehow committed playing and adrenalin do the trick. I've done a Strauss horn and a Bruch double recently and although the scores are much more complex, they are definitely easier to pull off.

The point I want to make though is that a conductor can get in the way. Well, I certainly can, and I dare say others can too. On occasions in rehearsals if ensemble is less than perfect one can say. "I'm going to stop conducting; just listen to the soloist", and it almost invariably gets better. Well, you can draw your own conclusions! Soloists with good body language help a lot too. I agree conductors are pretty useful for setting tempi, executing pauses and bothering about dynamics. But a low intervention strategy often works best, IMO, in classical concertos. Whilst direction from the keyboard (violin, flute or whatever) may not be ideal for making a definitive recording, on the concert platform I'm usually impressed. Somehow the audience is more 'engaged' (to use a horrible word) with the performance.

I wonder what level of complexity has to exist before a work becomes impossible to direct from the solo instrument? I can't imagine the Poulenc Organ Concerto being done, for instance (loads of changes in tempo and mood) even if you factor out the remoteness of an organ console. Has any player done a Rach concerto from the keyboard?

[Andrew Preview]

I've listened to the whole thing a couple of times with ears akimbo for edits. I hear none.

I'd have to admit that the piano sounds like it's in a slightly different acoustic for the cadenza on Perahia's recording. But I don't think that's a big deal.

[Bryn]

... actually Amazon.fr - 43 euros for 11 CDs...

I had somehow missed this thread until just now when I made a search for "Sofronitsky" after ordering the Mozart set via amazon.co.uk for £27.29 including p&p (being careful to avoid the somewhat cheaper offerings from the other side of the Pond (which wold almost certainly have attract hefty customs fees). Though I already have the Immerseel and Bilson sets, this one does look particularly attractive.