BaL 24.10.15 - Mozart: Symphony no. 36 in C K.425 "Linz"

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Agreed!

But maybe I should be more accurate in my question; what are the criteria on which a work is judged to be a 'major work?'

Surely there aren't any. There are so many factors that lead to such labelling - the opinions of critics and academics, longevity in the repertoire and how much money can be made out of the works in question - must be near the top of the tree.

[pastoralguy]

Surely there aren't any. There are so many factors that lead to such labelling - the opinions of critics and academics, longevity in the repertoire and how much money can be made out of the works in question - must be near the top of the tree.

And what it means to an individual listener. That criteria would be very hard to quantify.

[silvestrione]

Agreed!

But maybe I should be more accurate in my question; what are the criteria on which a work is judged to be a 'major work?'

It's a matter of commonly agreed judgements, isn't it? Obviously challengeable and always a little in flux. But there is a commonly agreed judgement, I would have thought, that Mozart's 'Prague', and last three symphonies, are of special quality, above that of his others, and on a level with the best ever.

Though, on thinking about it, and no doubt opening another can of worms, perhaps those last four are better described as works of genius, and the Linz, Haffner etc. indeed described as major.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Though, on thinking about it, and no doubt opening another can of worms, perhaps those last four are better described as works of genius, and the Linz, Haffner etc. indeed described as major.

But I would place the Linz right up there with the last 4, whereas, i'd relegate the Haffner, along with 25, 28, 29 and 34 as Mozart's 2nd tier symphonies.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But I would place the Linz right up there with the last 4, whereas, i'd relegate the Haffner, along with 25, 28, 29 and 34 as Mozart's 2nd tier symphonies.

Hmmm - allowing that Mozart's "second tier" towers out of the reach of most other composers, I'd agree.

I think I could demonstrate how any work by Mozart above cK200 is the work of a consummate craftsman, skilfully creating and assembling the elements of melody, harmony, tonality, rhythm, texture and instrumentation - and I think that such a demonstration would be accepted by others (not as "the last word", but as criteria for the validity of my own astonishment at Mozart's achievement). Whether or not this would change the opinion of anyone who happened not to be moved by the Music, I am less confident. (I've said this before, but whilst I appreciate Messiaen's achievement in these same criteria, I really do not like the sounds that result from this in very much of his Music.)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Hmmm - allowing that Mozart's "second tier" towers out of the reach of most other composers, I'd agree.

[cloughie]

Hmmm - allowing that Mozart's "second tier" towers out of the reach of most other composers, I'd agree.

I think I could demonstrate how any work by Mozart above cK200 is the work of a consummate craftsman, skilfully creating and assembling the elements of melody, harmony, tonality, rhythm, texture and instrumentation - and I think that such a demonstration would be accepted by others (not as "the last word", but as criteria for the validity of my own astonishment at Mozart's achievement). Whether or not this would change the opinion of anyone who happened not to be moved by the Music, I am less confident. (I've said this before, but whilst I appreciate Messiaen's achievement in these same criteria, I really do not like the sounds that result from this in very much of his Music.)

K183 is pretty spectacular too. I think my personal ranking, depending on when you ask, but today, is
39,38,41,36,34,33,29,25,35,40,31,32,28,30,27,26. Away from the Symphonies I rate the Haffner and Posthorn Serenades as good a Mozart listen as you'll get but the there's loads of good WAM in his 626.

[Roehre]

K183 is pretty spectacular too. I think my personal ranking, depending on when you ask, but today, is
39,38,41,36,34,33,29,25,35,40,31,32,28,30,27,26. Away from the Symphonies I rate the Haffner and Posthorn Serenades as good a Mozart listen as you'll get but the there's loads of good WAM in his 626.

remarkable you don't rank 34 and 31 the same way

[silvestrione]

But I would place the Linz right up there with the last 4, whereas, i'd relegate the Haffner, along with 25, 28, 29 and 34 as Mozart's 2nd tier symphonies.

That's interesting. I shall have another listen to the Linz and see if I can see it as a work of supreme genius, and get back to you.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Getting back to the programme, I did find it interesting, but I thought Adam Fischer was particularly dreadful. I thought one of the purposes of the conductor was to control the speed, but I suspect, the players might have done a better job without him.

[silvestrione]

That's interesting. I shall have another listen to the Linz and see if I can see it as a work of supreme genius, and get back to you.

Yes, should have paid more attention to the 'Linz'. I have carelessly under-appreciated it. Just listened to SCO/Mackerras and was particularly taken with the heart-stopping moment of the development in the slow movement, and the trio, and the wonderful sonorities Mozart conjures up with the instrumental resources available to him, everywhere, but particularly with the oboes and bassoon, the trumpet and drums in the slow movement, etc. The latter is sonority raised to a higher power!

Marvellous performance. You can always tell when you're really enjoying it, when you're grateful for the repeats, even of the second half on the slow movement, with the development twice, which I normally don't like. Did I notice some different balances and emphases in the repeats? Wasn't sure in the end.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Mozart conjures up with the instrumental resources available to him, everywhere, but particularly with the oboes and bassoon, the trumpet and drums in the slow movement, etc. The latter is sonority raised to a higher power!

YES! - it's astonishing that so much instrumental sonority can be mined from a String Orchestra with just nine other players throughout: no Flute, no Clarinets - just pairs of Oboes, Bassoons, Horns and Trumpets and a pair of Drums (C & G throughout for the Timpanist - but the chords that Mozart envelops those two notes with!)

Thanks, too, for mentioning the second half repeats - I'd missed RW if he commented on them. Maybe I might indulge, after all!

[Alison]

You can't have 40 that low, Cloughers.

35 is a marvel too.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

K183 is pretty spectacular too.

- 183 is "c200"?

[Roehre]

- 183 is "c200"?

183 = 173dB even