BaL 19.09.15 - Beethoven: Symphony no. 4 in B flat

[Darkbloom]

But Beethoven's menu is much larger than this - you can have them as much as you want, but there is also many other things to choose from. (And everything is cooked and served differently each time you order, anyway!)

I remember JEG talking around the time of the Bach pilgrimage about how, great as Mozart was, you sometimes wanted another flavour, and Bach represented to him the ultimate composer it was impossible to tire of. I grow more convinced of this opinion with the years, but you could also apply that to Beethoven, if (in my opinion) with slightly less justification. Even so, some space away from that extraordinary musical universe only helps me to understand it that much better next time. I take the point about the variety of LvB, and the many different ways it can be prepared, yet (like all great composers) he does still have his unique voice that comes through his best work, and I find I can approach it refreshed when I allow its echo to die away occasionally. I'm sure it all depends, to a large extent, on the personality you have; I don't like background noise in anything, for example, and I appreciate periods of silence as much as music. I could never do these Proms binges where people go to dozens of concerts in a short period, even if I had the time. I usually need a little space for something to 'settle' in my mind before listening to anything else, and I think a lot of it depends on one's individual attitude to things like this.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes - I'd not slap any wrists about anything you say in #121, Db - and I don't like to use Music as a background noise, either. Nor did I mean to suggest stuffing one's attentive ears all the time with non-stop Beethoven, so I suppose in that sense I seem to be agreeing that there is a situation when there can be "too much Beethoven". And, also like you, I can't "binge listen" (Elizabethan Serenade etc not intended): I need time to "digest" what I've heard - let it fuel my imagination and my spirits - let the Music resonate long after the physical sounds have finished vibrating - remember how to walk, etc.

With Beethoven (and Bach and Mozart and Handel and Brahms etc etc etc) performances reignite the appetite - provided we "connect" with the performance. If we don't, it's not Beethoven's fault. There is always room for good performances - in this sense, we can never have "a little too much Beethoven".

[jayne lee wilson]

BEETHOVEN SYMPHONY NO.4. ZURICH TONHALLE/ZINMAN. ARTE NOVA CD 1998.

On its own terms, this is about as perfectly-executed a Beethoven 4th as you could wish to hear: strings warm-toned, but with a clear, pure beauty without any excess of vibrato or individuality of phrase; the winds, true to the score but affectionate in their address of it; horns robust and extrovert without belligerence or self-assertion (perhaps the end of the scherzo excepted: but we can surely allow them THAT much fun). A very polished ensemble, drawn into a swiftly-paced and above all, DISCIPLINED reading by David Zinman. The recorded sound is outstandingly neutral, smooth and velvet-glove dynamic, within a vividly present, 3-dimensional acoustic: you won't hear much better quality from a CD than this.(Chris Hazell & Simon Eadon in the Tonhalle). So returning to this CD after several years (and several hifi system changes tending toward the more revealing or "analytical") has only increased my admiration for it.

In what many will see as outmoded reviewing terms, the accuracy and interpretative honesty of this recording does make a very good choice, if all you wanted was one Beethoven 4th. But surely we no longer need to choose in this way; classical listeners are all relativists now, or will become such during our listening lives: the lesson of Relativity from an artistic point of view being: always remember to include the observer in the picture. My own present tastes are very inclined toward period instruments or at least HIPPs-informed chamber-orchestral performances; all the same, I think it would be mistaken to see Zinman in purely those terms, as up-tempo, sharply-articulated Beethoven 4ths go back a long way, at least to Scherchen/RPO in 1954 (quicker than Zinman in some passages), arguably including Karajan's classic 1962 Berlin account. David Zinman and the Zurich Tonhalle easily ascend to that pantheon in a reading which is above all true the score AND true to itself. Conducted without a trace of oratory, powerful without being overbearing, athletically springy and pacy but never overdriven; most of all with a tonal (and recorded) warmth, purity and beauty that for me is memorably its own justification.

(As for those embellishments; the most obvious, the clarinet line after 6'17 in the adagio, seems to me perfectly apt in its place: it has an almost cadenza-like function, given its appearance toward the end of the movement and the unadorned articulacy of the "soloist" earlier on.)

[peterkin]

Fhgl - there is something cold yet self regarding about Zinman's conducting of Beethoven to my ears - all look at me aren't I fashionably up to date but do not scare the horses almost as if he is designed to be a safe library choice . It all seems dull and soulless to my ears .

[BBMmk2]

Duly ordered, JLW!

I've found on Spotify, the complete symphonies, PCs, Vc and 2 Romances in one box set. Will give that a listen, sometime.

[teamsaint]

I really think we need a vote on this.

[silvestrione]

BEETHOVEN SYMPHONY NO.4. ZURICH TONHALLE/ZINMAN. ARTE NOVA CD 1998.

On its own terms, this is about as perfectly-executed a Beethoven 4th as you could wish to hear: strings warm-toned, but with a clear, pure beauty without any excess of vibrato or individuality of phrase; the winds, true to the score but affectionate in their address of it; horns robust and extrovert without belligerence or self-assertion (perhaps the end of the scherzo excepted: but we can surely allow them THAT much fun). A very polished ensemble, drawn into a swiftly-paced and above all, DISCIPLINED reading by David Zinman. The recorded sound is outstandingly neutral, smooth and velvet-glove dynamic, within a vividly present, 3-dimensional acoustic: you won't hear much better quality from a CD than this.(Chris Hazell & Simon Eadon in the Tonhalle). So returning to this CD after several years (and several hifi system changes tending toward the more revealing or "analytical") has only increased my admiration for it.

In what many will see as outmoded reviewing terms, the accuracy and interpretative honesty of this recording does make a very good choice, if all you wanted was one Beethoven 4th. But surely we no longer need to choose in this way; classical listeners are all relativists now, or will become such during our listening lives: the lesson of Relativity from an artistic point of view being: always remember to include the observer in the picture. My own present tastes are very inclined toward period instruments or at least HIPPs-informed chamber-orchestral performances; all the same, I think it would be mistaken to see Zinman in purely those terms, as up-tempo, sharply-articulated Beethoven 4ths go back a long way, at least to Scherchen/RPO in 1954 (quicker than Zinman in some passages), arguably including Karajan's classic 1962 Berlin account. David Zinman and the Zurich Tonhalle easily ascend to that pantheon in a reading which is above all true the score AND true to itself. Conducted without a trace of oratory, powerful without being overbearing, athletically springy and pacy but never overdriven; most of all with a tonal (and recorded) warmth, purity and beauty that for me is memorably its own justification.

(As for those embellishments; the most obvious, the clarinet line after 6'17 in the adagio, seems to me perfectly apt in its place: it has an almost cadenza-like function, given its appearance toward the end of the movement and the unadorned articulacy of the "soloist" earlier on.)

OK, OK, I give in, I'm going to try it....

Especially as it's available for 98p plus postage!

[Nick Armstrong]

OK, OK, I give in, I'm going to try it....

Especially as it's available for 98p plus postage!

I'm currently trying it, on amazon music! Lovely recording quality... but...

... I'll wait till I've heard the whole thing before saying more. And I'll try listening without typing, too... !

[teamsaint]

I'm currently trying it, on amazon music! Lovely recording quality... but...

... I'll wait till I've heard the whole thing before saying more. And I'll try listening without typing, too... !

I thought us modern men were SUPPOSED to be learning to multitask.....

[Darkbloom]

[I]BEETHOVEN SYMPHONY NO.4. ZURICH TONHALLE/ZINMAN. ARTE NOVA CD 1998.

On its own terms, this is about as perfectly-executed a Beethoven 4th as you could wish to hear

[Ugh] I am going to be taken in by Jayne's eloquent advocacy. I am going to listen expecting to have all my disgraceful prejudices washed away. And I am going to hate it. Again. I can tell! It reminds me of those people who claim that the new Doctor Who is actually Dostoevsky for the 21st Century, then you watch it and find it is just as lousy as it ever was!

[Karafan]

I defy anyone to watch at least the whole first movement without pleasure!

I concur entirely Cali! I was overjoyed when DG released these on DVD after I had retired my trusty VHS recorder. Such sheer joie de vivre!

[Bryn]

I concur entirely Cali! I was overjoyed when DG released these on DVD after I had retired my trusty VHS recorder. Such sheer joie de vivre!

My Philips Unitel Kleiber DVD arrived today. About to watch/listen to it.

[Nick Armstrong]

I am not suggesting the Chaillys are definitive in any sense, but many times he made me sit up and take notice in a way that probably only Furtwangler can do, although these sound nothing like WF. I don't understand the enthusiasm for Zinman at all, so it's quite possible that it's just not for you, but I'd certainly say it was worth another go.

Well I've listened this evening to the Chailly and the Zinman renditions of LvB4. I would like to retract the word 'ludicrous' about the Chailly. I'm with you - it's pretty great, and the tempo that struck me as 'slightly ludicrous' for the Adagio second movement (based on the extract played, in juxtaposition with the other extracts in BAL) does seem fine.

And particularly when compared with the Zinman which - sorry, Jayne - I actively dislike. The performance sounds almost flippant, slick (yes, Barb - soulless is perhaps the word) and somehow beside the point. Sweet recording, but then so has the Chailly.

Treacherous, those little soundbites on BAL...

[teamsaint]

Well I've listened this evening to the Chailly and the Zinman renditions of LvB4. I would like to retract the word 'ludicrous' about the Chailly. I'm with you - it's pretty great, and the tempo that struck me as 'slightly ludicrous' for the Adagio second movement (based on the extract played, in juxtaposition with the other extracts in BAL) does seem fine.

And particularly when compared with the Zinman which - sorry, Jayne - I actively dislike. The performance sounds almost flippant, slick (yes, Barb - soulless is perhaps the word) and somehow beside the point. Sweet recording, but then so has the Chailly.

Treacherous, those little soundbites on BAL...

i've given the Zinman a few more listens over the past couple of days. It does seem to be one of the better efforts in the set, but I really struggle with these recordings.
The first movement of #8 ( which I listened to again tonight just for comparison)is a shambles of an interpretation, in my opinion.
And I am usually pretty easy going in these things.

[Nick Armstrong]

i've given the Zinman a few more listens over the past couple of days. It does seem to be one of the better efforts in the set, but I really struggle with these recordings.
The first movement of #8 ( which I listened to again tonight just for comparison)is a shambles of an interpretation, in my opinion.

The first movement transition from the intro in no 4 is handled really badly by Zinman, you can almost hear the gear changes up from 2nd to 3rd to 4th - unprogressive, perfunctory, meaningless. Poor.