Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte
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BaL 19.09.15 - Beethoven: Symphony no. 4 in B flat
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Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View PostWell, I was - but you are quite right; it was Barshai: I must've had my own mental crisproll.
Apologies to visnick.
As a stop-gap I might back-up the LP versions of 1 and 2 to CD-R.
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Originally posted by silvestrione View PostIndeed...once again (I'm thinking of the 'Eroica' BAL) I found the Karajan knocked spots off the following example (Gielen) which was supposed to show what was wrong with it...
Loved the Walter extract but I always loved it . The Szell made its acquisition in that absurdly cheap set a must .
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Originally posted by Barbirollians View PostAgreed entirely.
Loved the Walter extract but I always loved it . The Szell made its acquisition in that absurdly cheap set a must .
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Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View PostI don't think that a universe in which the phrase "a bit too much Beethoven" makes any syntactical sense would have made it beyond the Cosmic Dawn.
I stand by it though. I don't think there is anything that doesn't benefit from a rest now and again, and Beethoven is no different. Coming back to a composer or a piece after a reasonable interval is one of the most invigorating musical experiences I can have. And that's especially true for Beethoven. Over-exposure leads to the kind of complacent, manicured stuff that MTT gave us a few weeks ago and which, in my view, robs LvB of much of his power.
As to Chailly. Well, fair enough, we all have our different opinions. I found it one of the few occasions that I really sat up and took notice, but I think sometimes it takes a while for critical opinion to really solidify, while former favourites get forgotten. The enthusiasm for Zinman is something I will never understand, but that's part of the fun of these discussions.
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Originally posted by Darkbloom View PostI consider my wrists soundly slapped!
I stand by it though. I don't think there is anything that doesn't benefit from a rest now and again, and Beethoven is no different. Coming back to a composer or a piece after a reasonable interval is one of the most invigorating musical experiences I can have. And that's especially true for Beethoven. Over-exposure leads to the kind of complacent, manicured stuff that MTT gave us a few weeks ago and which, in my view, robs LvB of much of his power.
As to Chailly. Well, fair enough, we all have our different opinions. I found it one of the few occasions that I really sat up and took notice, but I think sometimes it takes a while for critical opinion to really solidify, while former favourites get forgotten. The enthusiasm for Zinman is something I will never understand, but that's part of the fun of these discussions.I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
I am not a number, I am a free man.
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Originally posted by Darkbloom View PostThe enthusiasm for Zinman is something I will never understand, but that's part of the fun of these discussions.
And, even if one might accept that MTT's Eroica was "complacent, manicured stuff" (and not everyone would agree) - this isn't "over-exposure to Beethoven" (and again, if there were such a thing as "Syntaxcheck", there would be a wavy line appearing underneath that phrase) but just bad performance. And with the handful of composers of Beethoven's stature, even that can be intellectually and aesthetically bracing in that it can focus our thoughts on why we find it doesn't match our conception of what Beethoven wrote and imagined.
Karajan got it right - having listened to the edits of his 1970s recording of the Fourth several times (IIRC, he said "hundreds") he said "I'm still finding new things".[FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]
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Roehre
Originally posted by Darkbloom View Post.... I don't think there is anything that doesn't benefit from a rest now and again, and Beethoven is no different. Coming back to a composer or a piece after a reasonable interval is one of the most invigorating musical experiences I can have. And that's especially true for Beethoven. .....
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Roehre
Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post..... And with the handful of composers of Beethoven's stature, even that can be intellectually and aesthetically bracing, in that it can focus our thoughts on why we find it doesn't match our conception of what Beethoven wrote and imagined. ....
It will be interesting what a future generation thinks of Klemperer, Furtwängler, Barbirolli etc etc as that generation will have been grown up with HIP performances and never heard live any of what we consider to be great conductors and great performances.
At least from the beginning of their listening life they will have had the choice between what is considered to be the composer's composition as well as what certainly is a conductor's [dis]guise of a composition.
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Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post- and I find it wonderful that (for example) we can agree so much about Zinman, and yet disagree equally passionately about Chailly.
And, even if one might accept that MTT's Eroica was "complacent, manicured stuff" (and not everyone would agree) - this isn't "over-exposure to Beethoven" (and again, if there were such a thing as "Syntaxcheck", there would be a wavy line appearing underneath that phrase) but just bad performance. And with the handful of composers of Beethoven's stature, even that can be intellectually and aesthetically bracing in that it can focus our thoughts on why we find it doesn't match our conception of what Beethoven wrote and imagined.
Karajan got it right - having listened to the edits of his 1970s recording of the Fourth several times (IIRC, he said "hundreds") he said "I'm still finding new things".
Of course, there is a sense in which great composers are inexhaustible. I don't think that Beethoven is essentially finite and, for that reason, we need to go away and forget it for a while to return afresh. More that the palate needs cleansing occasionally, at least for me. I used to listen to Wagner obsessively as a young man (as so many do) but I found that it was diminishing returns after a while, and you began to hear the notes rather than the music. This has nothing to do with the qualities of a composer, but everything to do with our capacity to absorb their work adequately. Perhaps you are different, but the thought of listening to a particular work every day, now matter how great, appalls me, just as I wouldn't want to listen to Hamlet every night either. But, maybe I am odd. I find things like coffee are only enjoyable in moderation too, while others lower the stuff by the bucketful, so we are all different.
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Originally posted by Darkbloom View PostI don't think that Beethoven is essentially finite and, for that reason, we need to go away and forget it for a while to return afresh. More that the palate needs cleansing occasionally:
Someone more knowledgeable than I am on these Boards (doubtless Roehre.. ) pointed out that such a stance had been put forward well before 1970...
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Originally posted by vinteuil View PostI have previously quoted on these Boards the recommendation put forward for the Beethoven [bi]centenary year in 1970 that the best thing we could do wd be to have a Year With No Beethoven At All, so that we we wd return in 1971 fully refreshed.
I took a minor version of this, and didn't listen to the Symphonies or Piano Concertos during that year
There is no such thing as "too much Beethoven" - there is only "too little time".[FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]
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Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
There is no such thing as "too much Beethoven" - there is only "too little time".
I love foie gras, I love green chartreuse.
If I ever had either at every meal I wd soon lose any appetite for either.
"Give me excess of it that, surfeiting,
The appetite may sicken, and so die... "
... not really a good recipe for the fullest way to listen to anything.
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Originally posted by vinteuil View PostI love foie gras, I love green chartreuse.
If I ever had either at every meal I wd soon lose any appetite for either.
Yes - there are other equally fine restaurants, with a different menu (and different ingredients), and one owes it to oneself to enjoy what they offer, too. But with all of them, each meal is a different experience, and cannot (except when badly cooked) become "over-familiar".
"Give me excess of it that, surfeiting,
The appetite may sicken, and so die... "
... not really a good recipe for the fullest way to listen to anything.[FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]
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