BaL 19.09.15 - Beethoven: Symphony no. 4 in B flat

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  • visualnickmos
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 3615

    Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
    Well, I was - but you are quite right; it was Barshai: I must've had my own mental crisproll.

    Apologies to visnick.

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    • Bryn
      Banned
      • Mar 2007
      • 24688

      Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
      Well, I was - but you are quite right; it was Barshai: I must've had my own mental crisproll.

      Apologies to visnick.
      The Sanderling set I have is on LP. I have just ordered 3 to 9 on HMV Classics CDs at very low prices via the amazon.co.uk marketplace (total cost 69p + £6.30 p&p). 1 and 2 are a bit pricey for me. I will await a bargain disc to turn up. Symphony No. 4 (Philharmonia/Sanderling) is coupled with the Choral Fantasy (Lill/Gibson), and was the most expensive at 29p.

      As a stop-gap I might back-up the LP versions of 1 and 2 to CD-R.
      Last edited by Bryn; 20-09-15, 22:27. Reason: Afterthoughts.

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      • Barbirollians
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 11771

        Originally posted by silvestrione View Post
        Indeed...once again (I'm thinking of the 'Eroica' BAL) I found the Karajan knocked spots off the following example (Gielen) which was supposed to show what was wrong with it...
        Agreed entirely.

        Loved the Walter extract but I always loved it . The Szell made its acquisition in that absurdly cheap set a must .

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        • richardfinegold
          Full Member
          • Sep 2012
          • 7755

          Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post
          Agreed entirely.

          Loved the Walter extract but I always loved it . The Szell made its acquisition in that absurdly cheap set a must .
          I used to own the Zinman cycle, but gave it away in one of my downsizing attempts. I remember really enjoying a couple of them (5 and 7 stick in my memory) and being nonplussed by some (3&9). I don't remember 4, but I am surprised it carried a very crowded field

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          • Darkbloom
            Full Member
            • Feb 2015
            • 706

            Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
            I don't think that a universe in which the phrase "a bit too much Beethoven" makes any syntactical sense would have made it beyond the Cosmic Dawn.
            I consider my wrists soundly slapped!

            I stand by it though. I don't think there is anything that doesn't benefit from a rest now and again, and Beethoven is no different. Coming back to a composer or a piece after a reasonable interval is one of the most invigorating musical experiences I can have. And that's especially true for Beethoven. Over-exposure leads to the kind of complacent, manicured stuff that MTT gave us a few weeks ago and which, in my view, robs LvB of much of his power.

            As to Chailly. Well, fair enough, we all have our different opinions. I found it one of the few occasions that I really sat up and took notice, but I think sometimes it takes a while for critical opinion to really solidify, while former favourites get forgotten. The enthusiasm for Zinman is something I will never understand, but that's part of the fun of these discussions.

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            • teamsaint
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 25233

              Originally posted by Darkbloom View Post
              I consider my wrists soundly slapped!

              I stand by it though. I don't think there is anything that doesn't benefit from a rest now and again, and Beethoven is no different. Coming back to a composer or a piece after a reasonable interval is one of the most invigorating musical experiences I can have. And that's especially true for Beethoven. Over-exposure leads to the kind of complacent, manicured stuff that MTT gave us a few weeks ago and which, in my view, robs LvB of much of his power.

              As to Chailly. Well, fair enough, we all have our different opinions. I found it one of the few occasions that I really sat up and took notice, but I think sometimes it takes a while for critical opinion to really solidify, while former favourites get forgotten. The enthusiasm for Zinman is something I will never understand, but that's part of the fun of these discussions.
              Almost deserves a thread of its own, discussion of that set.
              I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

              I am not a number, I am a free man.

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              • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                Gone fishin'
                • Sep 2011
                • 30163

                Originally posted by Darkbloom View Post
                The enthusiasm for Zinman is something I will never understand, but that's part of the fun of these discussions.
                - and I find it wonderful that (for example) we can agree so much about Zinman, and yet disagree equally passionately about Chailly.

                And, even if one might accept that MTT's Eroica was "complacent, manicured stuff" (and not everyone would agree) - this isn't "over-exposure to Beethoven" (and again, if there were such a thing as "Syntaxcheck", there would be a wavy line appearing underneath that phrase) but just bad performance. And with the handful of composers of Beethoven's stature, even that can be intellectually and aesthetically bracing in that it can focus our thoughts on why we find it doesn't match our conception of what Beethoven wrote and imagined.

                Karajan got it right - having listened to the edits of his 1970s recording of the Fourth several times (IIRC, he said "hundreds") he said "I'm still finding new things".
                [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                • Roehre

                  Originally posted by Darkbloom View Post
                  .... I don't think there is anything that doesn't benefit from a rest now and again, and Beethoven is no different. Coming back to a composer or a piece after a reasonable interval is one of the most invigorating musical experiences I can have. And that's especially true for Beethoven. .....
                  Cannot agree more (and including many other war horses here too, especially Mahler)

                  Comment

                  • Roehre

                    Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                    ..... And with the handful of composers of Beethoven's stature, even that can be intellectually and aesthetically bracing, in that it can focus our thoughts on why we find it doesn't match our conception of what Beethoven wrote and imagined. ....
                    And that's exactly why it doesn't make much sense to go for what might be considered "the best" performance or a great performance or recording. It's our own [pre-]conditioned attitude to works we think we know well.

                    It will be interesting what a future generation thinks of Klemperer, Furtwängler, Barbirolli etc etc as that generation will have been grown up with HIP performances and never heard live any of what we consider to be great conductors and great performances.
                    At least from the beginning of their listening life they will have had the choice between what is considered to be the composer's composition as well as what certainly is a conductor's [dis]guise of a composition.

                    Comment

                    • Darkbloom
                      Full Member
                      • Feb 2015
                      • 706

                      Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                      - and I find it wonderful that (for example) we can agree so much about Zinman, and yet disagree equally passionately about Chailly.

                      And, even if one might accept that MTT's Eroica was "complacent, manicured stuff" (and not everyone would agree) - this isn't "over-exposure to Beethoven" (and again, if there were such a thing as "Syntaxcheck", there would be a wavy line appearing underneath that phrase) but just bad performance. And with the handful of composers of Beethoven's stature, even that can be intellectually and aesthetically bracing in that it can focus our thoughts on why we find it doesn't match our conception of what Beethoven wrote and imagined.

                      Karajan got it right - having listened to the edits of his 1970s recording of the Fourth several times (IIRC, he said "hundreds") he said "I'm still finding new things".
                      Perhaps I didn't express myself as I would have wished before.

                      Of course, there is a sense in which great composers are inexhaustible. I don't think that Beethoven is essentially finite and, for that reason, we need to go away and forget it for a while to return afresh. More that the palate needs cleansing occasionally, at least for me. I used to listen to Wagner obsessively as a young man (as so many do) but I found that it was diminishing returns after a while, and you began to hear the notes rather than the music. This has nothing to do with the qualities of a composer, but everything to do with our capacity to absorb their work adequately. Perhaps you are different, but the thought of listening to a particular work every day, now matter how great, appalls me, just as I wouldn't want to listen to Hamlet every night either. But, maybe I am odd. I find things like coffee are only enjoyable in moderation too, while others lower the stuff by the bucketful, so we are all different.

                      Comment

                      • vinteuil
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 12959

                        Originally posted by Darkbloom View Post
                        I don't think that Beethoven is essentially finite and, for that reason, we need to go away and forget it for a while to return afresh. More that the palate needs cleansing occasionally:
                        ... this is so true. I have previously quoted on these Boards the recommendation put forward for the Beethoven centenary year in 1970 that the best thing we could do wd be to have a Year With No Beethoven At All, so that we we wd return in 1971 fully refreshed. I took a minor version of this, and didn't listen to the Symphonies or Piano Concertos during that year...

                        Someone more knowledgeable than I am on these Boards (doubtless Roehre.. ) pointed out that such a stance had been put forward well before 1970...

                        Comment

                        • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                          Gone fishin'
                          • Sep 2011
                          • 30163

                          Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
                          I have previously quoted on these Boards the recommendation put forward for the Beethoven [bi]centenary year in 1970 that the best thing we could do wd be to have a Year With No Beethoven At All, so that we we wd return in 1971 fully refreshed.
                          Maybe that's the rationale behind the Searle Centenary?

                          I took a minor version of this, and didn't listen to the Symphonies or Piano Concertos during that year
                          That raises an important point I should have made earlier: the great variety of Beethoven (and Bach and Brahms and Schönberg and Stravinsky and and and) - it's an entire restaurant, not a selection of cabbages: is Op 25 "over-familiar"? Is anyone sick and tired of all those broadcasts of the String Trios day after day after day? If I mention the Horn Sonata, how many people won't be able to get the Second Group theme from the First Movement out of their heads all day? Isn't it time for a rest from annual performance of Meeresstille und Glücklichefahrt at the Proms?

                          There is no such thing as "too much Beethoven" - there is only "too little time".
                          [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                          • vinteuil
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 12959

                            Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post

                            There is no such thing as "too much Beethoven" - there is only "too little time".
                            ... I still disagree, to a point. It's a question of having space between.

                            I love foie gras, I love green chartreuse.

                            If I ever had either at every meal I wd soon lose any appetite for either.

                            "Give me excess of it that, surfeiting,
                            The appetite may sicken, and so die... "

                            ... not really a good recipe for the fullest way to listen to anything.

                            Comment

                            • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                              Gone fishin'
                              • Sep 2011
                              • 30163

                              Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
                              I love foie gras, I love green chartreuse.
                              If I ever had either at every meal I wd soon lose any appetite for either.
                              But Beethoven's menu is much larger than this - you can have them as much as you want, but there is also many other things to choose from. (And everything is cooked and served differently each time you order, anyway!)

                              Yes - there are other equally fine restaurants, with a different menu (and different ingredients), and one owes it to oneself to enjoy what they offer, too. But with all of them, each meal is a different experience, and cannot (except when badly cooked) become "over-familiar".

                              "Give me excess of it that, surfeiting,
                              The appetite may sicken, and so die... "

                              ... not really a good recipe for the fullest way to listen to anything.
                              Well, yes ... and it doesn't do to over-indulge; but that's different from being "over-familiar"; I'm not suggesting that people should gorge non-stop.
                              [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                              Comment

                              • Beef Oven!
                                Ex-member
                                • Sep 2013
                                • 18147

                                Brahms is like porridge, and I have porridge a lot. So I can't see the problem.

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