BaL 19.09.15 - Beethoven: Symphony no. 4 in B flat

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A tad unfair!

True, true <sackclothandashesemoticon>

[Nick Armstrong]

I've had the Zinman set for years, and the 4th is brilliant, but those twiddly bits I still find myself listening out for them, in some distant hope they will go away! Such a pity; like sticking unnecessary bows to a beautiful Dior creation..... WHY????? Surely if Beethoven had wanted twiddles he would have b******y well said so.....

Basically, it ruins the whole show for me.

Yes I wonder how I would react to the twiddles, over time. I know exactly what you mean about anticipating them with a vague hope they'll have gone away, like a familiar click or pop on an old LP.

As for the ironing out of the gracenotes which RC pointed out in the Norrington first movement, making almost a new tune... well, I have the 1943 Berlin Fürtwängler* on at the moment, and he does it too!

.

*It's bloody electrifying! With the usual creepy sense of where and when it's happening...

[Darkbloom]

the slightly ludicrous Chailly

I have been re-listening to the whole Chailly Gewandhaus set in the last few days. I was impressed when I first heard it, and coming back to it again it seems like one of the most impressive cycles I have ever heard. I don't know what you found particularly ludicrous about the Fourth, but I thought the whole Nine sounded like a conductor and orchestra in complete harmony. Chailly certainly takes them pretty fast, but without skating over the music in a way that a lot of the Period performances tend to do, in my opinion. Zinman combines all the worst traits of that approach, and he never gets anywhere near the heart of the music, and we get bogged down in mannerisms. The only time Chailly doesn't bring it off is the Seventh, which sounds a little shallow compared to the best versions. I think we missed out a lot when Chailly couldn't be at the Proms last year.

[vinteuil]

... this is all very well, and of course every right thinking person shd have Toscanini Furtwangler Cluytens Klemperer Norrington Bruggen Krivine Zinman Szell and other Mackerrases on her or his shelves.

But we shd also have the insights provided by -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00PY21P44

I thank you.

[silvestrione]

the good indeed rather splendid 1962 Karajan,

Indeed...once again (I'm thinking of the 'Eroica' BAL) I found the Karajan knocked spots off the following example (Gielen) which was supposed to show what was wrong with it...

[Nick Armstrong]

I don't know what you found particularly ludicrous about the Fourth.... Chailly certainly takes them pretty fast, without skating over the music

Not particularly ludicrous - just slightly so, I said - and because it does sound to my ears like skating over the music (both in the extract played, and from my recollection of auditioning the performances when they came out). I put them in my mind in a similar category to the Jarvi Bremen approach, which is perhaps unfair. I wonder where Zinman will fit when I try it; and perhaps I should give Chailly another comparative chance...

[Darkbloom]

Not particularly ludicrous - just slightly so, I said - and because it does sound to my ears like skating over the music (both in the extract played, and from my recollection of auditioning the performances when they came out). I put them in my mind in a similar category to the Jarvi Bremen approach, which is perhaps unfair. I wonder where Zinman will fit when I try it; and perhaps I should give Chailly another comparative chance...

I think we can all hear a bit too much Beethoven sometimes, and when I saw the Chailly I just thought "oh, yet another cycle", but this sounded different. I think he got something special there, and perhaps part of the reason for his abrupt departure was the knowledge that he had done all he could and there was nothing left to say with that band any more. I seem to recall Karajan no longer doing Mahler 9 because he thought he had done all that he could do. I am not suggesting the Chaillys are definitive in any sense, but many times he made me sit up and take notice in a way that probably only Furtwangler can do, although these sound nothing like WF. I don't understand the enthusiasm for Zinman at all, so it's quite possible that it's just not for you, but I'd certainly say it was worth another go.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I don't think that a universe in which the phrase "a bit too much Beethoven" makes any syntactical sense would have made it beyond the Cosmic Dawn.

I'm with Cali on Chailly - whilst not in the risible stakes (go to Thielemann for that) the breathless pacing and phrasing of Chailly's set is something that doesn't match the scores as I read them. I know others disagree - and I got very firmly told off by Thomas Roth (late of this parish) for saying so before; repeated hearings haven't altered my response to these recordings. (It was the Krivine set that gave me my "sit up and take notice" moments - and still does.)

jlw's mentioning Zinman's Eroica reminded me that I already have this recording in my collection: I played it again this afternoon - I think it's one of the best in the Zinman set (the Slow Movement is particularly well done, and the slow introduction to the First Movement promises much) but I still find it - certainly not "dull", Barbi - too brusque for my taste: a bit relentless and "shove-y", which makes for a certain sameness of characterization; the smile is there, but it often sounds "forced". Excellent playing and recording - and one of the few available as an individual disc (as opposed to coming in a boxed set) - I can see why RC might have singled (ho-ho) it out, even if I don't agree.

(Nor do I agree with his comments on the Slow Movement in Bruno Walter's recording: the money I save on the Zinman might well get absorbed by buying the Walter cycle when it is re-issued.)

[visualnickmos]

Just to broadly concur with Caliban's (msg 89) comments; an excellent BaL. I love RC's style - always have done. I just didn't agree with his library choice - and therein lies the beauty of a quality BaL - one is allowed to make one's choice based what one acquires from the programme. So, ten out of ten from me on this BaL.;

Plus the fact that one can be introduced to 'new' versions; case in point for me is the Russian set from Barshai (I can't recall the ensemble) which I found exhilarating and want to check out further, as with Kletzki and the Czech PO. I don't think Sanderling was mentioned....? I was under the impression that his complete cycle was something special...? I don't know it, so have nothing to go on.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The Sanderling was mentioned - about a quarter-of-an-hour into the programme there were some appreciative remarks from RC. From a boxed set of the first Eight Symphonies!

[visualnickmos]

Thank you, fhg

I must have crunched on a crisproll at the very moment!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's a Saturday morning - if a chap can't chomp on a crisproll in private then, when can he?

[Bryn]

The Sanderling was mentioned - about a quarter-of-an-hour into the programme there were some appreciative remarks from RC. From a boxed set of the first Eight Symphonies!

Are you sure? I thought the first eight symphonies referred to were conducted by Barshai. I have the Sanderling (Philharmonia) set and it has all nine.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Are you sure?

Well, I was - but you are quite right; it was Barshai: I must've had my own mental crisproll.

Apologies to visnick.

[Barbirollians]

Fhgl - there is something cold yet self regarding about Zinman's conducting of Beethoven to my ears - all look at me aren't I fashionably up to date but do not scare the horses almost as if he is designed to be a safe library choice . It all seems dull and soulless to my ears .