BaL 14.12.24 - Wagner: Siegfried Idyll

[smittims]

Wolfram, according to John Lucas, Klemperer's recording is of the original 13-instrument version. Indeed ,he is said to have refused on more than one occasion to conduct the orchestral expanded version.

Whie I accept that the original has its authority,as it was intended to be a private work, I prefer larger performances as I feel the music needs it, and is constricted by a chamber ensemble. I've just listened to Karl Muck's 1929 recording with the Berlin State Opera Orchestra, recorded in the old Philharmonie. It certainly sounds like a sizeable string section. Now Muck was a Wagner purist, who refused to record the Good Friday Music when it was proposed to have two side-breaks. He even looked like Wagner , short , with a prominent cranium and incisive jaw. I think his and Toscanini's recordings are good advocacy for the fuller version.

[Wolfram]

Wolfram, according to John Lucas, Klemperer's recording is of the original 13-instrument version. Indeed ,he is said to have refused on more than one occasion to conduct the orchestral expanded version.

Whie I accept that the original has its authority,as it was intended to be a private work, I prefer larger performances as I feel the music needs it, and is constricted by a chamber ensemble.

I stand corrected. It’s been a long time since I listened to any version apart from the VPO Decca. I also have a couple of versions from Karajan, both of which I'm sure use the full string section scoring.

[Serial_Apologist]

There's a fictionalised performance of it in Visconti's 'Ludwig' (with Trevor Howard as a wonderful Wagner) but I think they've got the instrumentation wrong. I'm relying on memory , but I think there are too many violins.

Speaking of Mahler's Fifth Symphony by way of Visconti () has anyone noticed that a thrice-repeated motif from Siegfried Idyll worms its way into the famous main theme from the Adagietto? It also gets quoted in Strauss's Til Eulenspiegel... and another well-know work which escapes me right now.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Speaking of Mahler's Fifth Symphony by way of Visconti () has anyone noticed that a thrice-repeated motif from Siegfried Idyll worms its way into the famous main theme from the Adagietto? It also gets quoted in Strauss's Til Eulenspiegel... and another well-know work which escapes me right now.

What are the themes or motifs in notes or bar number ?

[smittims]

Mahler is notoriously allusive. It was many years before I discovered the Beethoven quotation in the third movement of his second symphony. It's from the scherzo of Beethoven's G major violin sonata. And speaking of Mahler's fifth,there's a moment inthe finale when I keep thinking Strauss' first horn concerto is about to start; I'm sure most horn players will know the moment I mean!.

There are echoes (not usually quotations) of the Siegfried Idyll in many composers including Elgar and Delius.

[Barbirollians]

One of those occasions where I am prompted by a BAL to go through the shelves. Haitink's Cgebouw version is so very lovely it has eclipsed others- though I did not have the Solti which is now on its way in a very cheap Double Decca of Wagner excerpts .

There is a lovely Abbado performance from Lucerne on Audite coupled with a splendid Beethoven 2 and a very moving account of the Unfinished.

[Petrushka]

One of those occasions where I am prompted by a BAL to go through the shelves. Haitink's Cgebouw version is so very lovely it has eclipsed others- though I did not have the Solti which is now on its way in a very cheap Double Decca of Wagner excerpts .

There is a lovely Abbado performance from Lucerne on Audite coupled with a splendid Beethoven 2 and a very moving account of the Unfinished.

I have all of those in my collection and fully agree with your assessment. I bought the Concertgebouw/Haitink on LP (as filler to his Bruckner 7) and then again on CD with his Bruckner 8. It's now in the big Haitink box.

I'm glad that someone else agrees about the loveliness of this performance as it rarely gets a mention and is so underrated.

[Barbirollians]

It’s one of those works that is often a coupling . I realise to my shame I have not listened to OK’s version which is coupled with his Mahler 9 - such a gaunt , powerful experience I have never listened to the coupling .

[Wolfram]

One of those occasions where I am prompted by a BAL to go through the shelves. Haitink's Cgebouw version is so very lovely it has eclipsed others- though I did not have the Solti which is now on its way in a very cheap Double Decca of Wagner excerpts .

There is a lovely Abbado performance from Lucerne on Audite coupled with a splendid Beethoven 2 and a very moving account of the Unfinished.

I think the Abbado was the winner last time it was covered by BaL.

[smittims]

Claudio did a sublime 'Unfinished' at Lucerne in 2013 shortly before his death.It was broadcast on Radio 3 (yes.the whole of it!). Could this be the same one? It shared the bill with an equally fine Bruckner 9th.

[Barbirollians]

No the one on Audite is from 1978- the writer of the booklet note is rather snotty about it compared with the Beethoven 2 as a I recall . I think there is a later live Unfinished that was issued on DG could be that one ?

[Petrushka]

No the one on Audite is from 1978- the writer of the booklet note is rather snotty about it compared with the Beethoven 2 as a I recall . I think there is a later live Unfinished that was issued on DG could be that one ?

No, that one is taken from a live concert given in Vienna on May 31 1971 with the Vienna Philharmonic.

[Darloboy]

The Ring was certainly covered in 2013, Wagner's 200th anniversary year. Meistersinger has been mentioned already and I thought Tristan was done relatively recently but perhaps I'm mistaken. I can't recall a Parsifal BaL.

There have been few (any?) new recordings of the major operas in recent years so presumably previous recommendations still stand.

In fact, The Ring was last covered in 2008. Parsifal has been covered 3 times - in 1987, 1996 and 2013. Tristan was last covered in 2011. Whilst it's true that Wagner operas used to be covered quite frequently, my point is that there hasn't been a single programme on any of them in the last 9 years. Whatever one might think of Wagner, he is one of the major opera composers - it's extraordinary that a programme entitled Building a Library hasn't seen fit to cover a single one of his operas during this time.

On reflection, I don't think this is necessarily just about Wagner: BaL seems to have pretty much given up on opera - in the 2023-24 series, the only opera featured was Madama Butterfly (unless you include Theodora, which is of course an oratorio). We're a third of the way through the current series and so far we've only had Il Trovatore. The norm per series used to be about 5 operas.

For what it's worth, the producers also seem to have given up on survey programmes devoted to an individual composer...

[Darloboy]

Another point to bear in mind is that for any reviewer to audition the Ring cycle operas in any depth, the time taken far exceeds the ability of the BBC to recompense adequately.

But BaL has managed to cover The Ring three times in the past - in 1973, 1986 and 2008. In 1973, Charles Osborne reviewed the whole cycle in a single programme. On the other 2 occasions, there were 4 consecutive, separate programmes - one for each opera. In 1986, Alan Blyth did all 4 programmes. In 2008, there were 4 different reviewers. There was also a 5th programme on DVD Ring cycles.

In between, there was an individual programme on Die Walküre in 1998.

Whether the Beeb would ever be prepared to devote 4 or 5 consecutive weeks of BaL to The Ring again is a good question though...

[Petrushka]

In fact, The Ring was last covered in 2008. Parsifal has been covered 3 times - in 1987, 1996 and 2013. Tristan was last covered in 2011. Whilst it's true that Wagner operas used to be covered quite frequently, my point is that there hasn't been a single programme on any of them in the last 9 years. Whatever one might think of Wagner, he is one of the major opera composers - it's extraordinary that a programme entitled Building a Library hasn't seen fit to cover a single one of his operas during this time.

On reflection, I don't think this is necessarily just about Wagner: BaL seems to have pretty much given up on opera - in the 2023-24 series, the only opera featured was Madama Butterfly (unless you include Theodora, which is of course an oratorio). We're a third of the way through the current series and so far we've only had Il Trovatore. The norm per series used to be about 5 operas.

For what it's worth, the producers also seem to have given up on survey programmes devoted to an individual composer...

2008? I listened to all four programmes and can't believe it's that long ago. How time flies! Any competent reviewer should be able to do a Ring BaL mostly because the strengths and weaknesses of the major contenders are pretty well known by now, except, of course, to newbies which is the point of BaL.

If you put it to the BaL team, they'd probably point out, as I did, that there haven't been any new entrants to shake the existing order so previous recommendations still stand.

I've still got three Rings to listen to that I've not heard yet, due to one reason or another, so need to seriously catch up!