BaL 9.11.24 - Verdi: Il trovatore

[Master Jacques]

... thank you, maître Jacques, for the correction. I was misinformed.

The gitanos had certainly arrived in Zaragoza by 1447 : whether they were around at the time of the death of King Martin of Aragon in 1410 is moot.

.

My pleasure vinteuil, or rather more, my duty!

Of course I am always very ready to defend both Cammarano's magnificently terse libretto and Guttiérez's more prolix and passionate original. To skewer them on grounds of failed historical verisimilitude seems as wacky as attacking The Lord of the Rings on the ground that Orcs don't exist, but in these two areas there isn't any trespass beyond strict historical realities!

[Ein Heldenleben]

I don't know where this misinformation originates, but even if we insist on judging Il trovatore by standards of documentary realism, these two claims are baffling. Guttiérez wasn't some presentist nitwit making it up as he went along, but a well-educated, talented romantic playwright.

1. 'Trovador' in Spanish has a wider currency than the aristocratic "troubadour" (which Manrico is not, or at least if he is he doesn't realise it), but applies to any kind of peripatetic singer. I fancy the same is true of the Italian translation.

2. The Romer people (gitanos) had certainly arrived in Spain by the mid-fifteenth century, and were soon subject to special laws. They were especially familiar in Zaragoza (where the first scene is set) and had an Aragonian enclave near the city. They are familiar from many Spanish music theatre pieces (and golden age plays) set in the middle ages.

Isn’t Flamenco pretty much a synthesis of the gypsy and the troubadour? Perhaps not musically but in
the itinerant make a living from the guitar / lute on your back sense .

Shame Verdi didn’t incorporate some despite the anachronism . I guess he’d never heard any *

* of course he had - there’s some in La Traviata !

[vinteuil]

... thank you, maître Jacques, for the correction. I was misinformed.

The gitanos had certainly arrived in Zaragoza by 1447 : whether they were around at the time of the death of King Martin of Aragon in 1410 is moot.

.

... and Spanish wiki certainly thinks that the trovadores had long gone -

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trovador

Of course I am delighted with the end product...




.

[Master Jacques]

Isn’t Flamenco pretty much a synthesis of the gypsy and the troubadour? Perhaps not musically but in
the itinerant make a living from the guitar / lute on your back sense .

Shame Verdi didn’t incorporate some despite the anachronism . I guess he’d never heard any *

* of course he had - there’s some in La Traviata !

Well... what we get in La traviata's choral ballet isn't flamenco, but something based on what Auber does in Le domino noir - i.e. pastiche "Spanishry" in the French style. It's the same with all Verdi's "Spanish" music (Eboli's 'Moorish' music in particular).

In fact while writing Don Carlos he sent an emissary to Francisco Barbieri in Madrid, asking him for some genuine Spanish folk music which he could incorporate in his new opera. But due to the fact that he'd snubbed Spain's leading stage composer during an extended stay in the Spanish capital to conduct the Teatro Real premiere of La forza del destino - twice refusing to greet him when his eminent colleague called to pay his respects - he was given short shrift in return.

"I could give Verdi precisely the material he wants. Indeed I have it more or less under my hand at this moment. But due to his personal discourtesy when he was in Madrid, I must tell you that I flatly decline to help him".

Barbieri could be like that. And in this case, I for one am not inclined to blame him. He revered the Italian maestro, having learned much of his own (impressive) stage craft from Verdi's early and middle-period operas, so the personal rudeness he'd been shown by his hero rankled all the more. Revenge in this case was served nicely chilled.

[silvestrione]

I've just caught up with this one: very glad I did. Not being an opera buff really. But it was very enjoyable and illuminating, and what singing! And these two, Roger Parker and Andrew McG., clearly get on well together, and sounded relaxed.
No problem with old recordings, either!

[Master Jacques]

I've just caught up with this one: very glad I did. Not being an opera buff really. But it was very enjoyable and illuminating, and what singing! And these two, Roger Parker and Andrew McG., clearly get on well together, and sounded relaxed.
No problem with old recordings, either!

I heard it this morning (at the proper time) also, and totally agree. Roger Parker used the time well, and came up with the goods by directing our attention to the singers' differences of approach. Thoroughly worthwhile on a great work, and a satisfying conclusion too.